On this episode of Women Winning Divorce, the focus is on co-parenting with a narcissist. Heather discusses the challenges of co-parenting with a narcissist, how to avoid falling into the narcissist's traps, and navigating your ex's manipulation of your children.
"Women Winning Divorce" is a radio show and podcast hosted by Heather Quick, CEO and Owner of Florida Women's Law Group. Each week we focus on different aspects of family law to help guide women through the difficult and emotional legal challenges they are facing. Heather brings over 20 years of law experience that advocates and empowers women to achieve happier and healthier lives. Join Heather each week as she discusses family law issues including divorce, custody, alimony, paternity, narcissism, mediation and more.
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Women Winning Divorce
Episode 19
Co-Parenting With a Narcissist
Julie:
Welcome to Women Winning Divorce with your host, Heather Quick. Heather brings over 20 years of law experience that advocates and empowers women to achieve happier and healthier lives. Each week, we provide knowledge and guidance on different aspects of family law to help lead women through the difficult and emotional legal challenges that they are facing. Listen in as she discusses issues including divorce, custody, alimony, paternity narcissism, mediation, and other family law issues to provide insight on the journey of Women Winning Divorce. Welcome to the show, I'm Julie Morgan, and I'm joined by your host, Heather Quick. Heather, how you doing?
Heather:
I am great, Julie. How are you today?
Julie:
I'm doing very well. It's good to see you.
Heather:
It's great to see you, as well.
Julie:
You know, this is our last time talking about this topic, I mean the overall general topic of narcissism and being married to a narcissist, divorcing a narcissist, today is co-parenting with a narcissist. I have a feeling that co-parenting with a narcissist is a challenge.
Heather:
Indeed, it is. I think as we get into it today, hopefully we're going to at least provide some education and tips for women going through this that will hopefully help them.
Julie:
So once you're divorced, even if you have kids, the manipulation ends, right? I know you know that that's sarcasm, but okay, go ahead.
Heather:
Well, no, because you are still connected with them. So for women that have divorced the narcissist and so it's a little less, but you're connected to this person forever, I hate to break it to you, when you have children. It doesn't just end at 18 years, so the better you can equip yourself to deal with these situations, the better.
Julie:
Yeah, I was thinking about that because we've talked about co-parenting before, of course not specifically narcissists, co-parenting with a narcissist, but we've talked about the fact that co-parenting, it lasts forever. It lasts a long time because you'll possibly have grandkids, so they're going to be there a while.
Heather:
Exactly, I mean, that's the reality. Even though we legally, and we try to say, "Hey, you've got 18 years, once they're 18," but I mean, let's be real, it's thereafter. At that point, after 18, you just really have to figure it out how to navigate that because there's no court system that can help you with that. There are more therapeutic ways to help people navigate co-parenting. But the reality is now you're on your own and they're hopefully going to college, they're going to be getting married, buying their first house, having kids, things that they're going to go to both parents for. I think the more you can learn how to deal with that narcissist co-parent and your children early on, I think those tools and those methods will work for you in the future.
Julie:
Do you think it's possible for a narcissist to co-parent?
Heather:
I don't really think so. It's more like what we would say counter-parent. You think you’re not the target anymore, but you still are in a way, they're still going to try to hurt you and they are really going to miss the emotional damage that they're doing to the children, unfortunately. The children are just pawns in the game because now the game is a bit different because it's no longer as much about the marriage. So now the children are the tool that he can use back and forth, and they do.
Julie:
Okay, so they really can't co-parent. That's sad because that sounds like that's really damaging to the kids.
Heather:
It is, and the reality is that we've talked about this before, that's their parent. You guys chose each other, whatever happened, you two made these children. This child, that's their father, you're their mother. I would say you help them cope and understand, and yeah, they may have to figure this out a little earlier than other children who maybe the parents stay married or there's not a narcissist, but they're going to learn. If you can help them cope and support them in a way without engaging in the same type of behavior that your husband, ex-husband does, it's going to give them a lot of education, which they can build on, hopefully.
Julie:
Yeah, hopefully so. Part of that damage to them is they may say, "Oh, I want this particular time with the kids during the process," but then they don't show up.
Heather:
Yes, because that's the game and the control and winning. They're saying, "Okay, well I want all this time." Well, now that the divorce is over, they may not show up. Or when they do have them, really not exercising the time with them, they're having their mom or dad watch them or just babysitters and nannies.
Julie:
Okay. All right, so they really won't spend time with the child or the kids?
Heather:
Most likely not, probably, not as much time as they have fought for, and it's more about having the time to say they have the time. Will they? We always hope. Hopefully they do utilize that time and it is quality time for them, but I think if you look at the literature and the data, not so much, because they probably haven't changed and everything still revolves around them. So even when the children are there, it's not all about the kids' schedules and their sports and things. It's more about, well, this is what I want to do as your parent, so this is what we're going to do.
Julie:
But don't they have to adhere to the parenting plan?
Heather:
They do, but there's a lot of leeway in there, there can be. If you have a well-drafted parenting plan, knowing who you're dealing with and really addressing issues that you anticipate coming up or things that have come up during the divorce and marriage, that will help you quite a bit. The standard language in a parenting plan is going to presume that you guys are going to work a lot of this out and that everybody's going to be reasonable and put the kids first. So that, when that doesn't happen, of course is frustrating.
Julie:
This really goes back to that episode, that show that we did when we talked about the parenting plan and co-parenting. I remember you saying how you need to really work on the language, the language needs to be specific for your situation.
Heather:
It does, here's an example, say your child has played soccer and travel soccer the entire marriage, which is an investment in time and money for the family. Now the divorce is over and a general parenting plan will say you're going to split things 50/50 that are agreed upon. So now all of a sudden they'll be like, "Well, I didn't agree to that," and then that just absolutely affects the child, who this is their thing. So you might want to really have more specific language in a parenting plan as to kids who really are on that sports track and dedicated that they agree that as long as the child is wanting to play, they're going to do that. Then on their weekends, they're going to travel and handle that and take them to these games.
When it's at that higher level, that's where some specificity in your parenting plan is going to help you. Again, that can be negotiated by asking the court and the court may, at the end of the day, say, "Hey, you may be a bad parent if you're not going to allow your child to do this that they've always done, but I can't force you to do it." That's where the narcissist prevails, and they might, and those are hard lessons for your children to learn, but that's their father. I know that's not an answer to solve it, but sometimes you just have to have some acceptance as to that's who he is, that's how he's going to show up for you, I can only do so much. That's why I left, because I can't, and that's why we left, because I couldn't live that way. Yeah, you still have to deal with it on some level for the children.
Julie:
So it sounds like to me, let's say something came up, a situation came up in your life and you have to swap weekends or something like that, that's probably not going to work.
Heather:
It can be very difficult, yes. That will be something where you could address that in the parenting plan because that's what people want. Like, they want to switch, but then they know it's so difficult and so they opt to say, "You know what, if you can't take your time, let me know. I'll take them, but we're not doing makeup time and we're not doing swapping," because then they have altered their whole schedule. Then they're like, "Oh, hey, you owe me two weekends. I want these weekends next month." You're like, "No, it doesn't work that way. If you can't watch them, I will, but we don't have makeup time." That can really get tricky and that's something that I've seen over time. It's like, if they won't agree, if you say, "Hey, can you watch the kids?", you've offered it to them, now you can have your parents, or you may have a sitter, say you've got something to go out of town for work or an event. It's going to make it a little more difficult for you, that's why they're going to do it like that. Their schedule prevails.
Julie:
I was thinking, even if you said, "Okay, sure, we can swap two weekends next month," or "You can get those extra two weekends," they may not even show up.
Heather:
True, or cancel at the last minute, "Oh, this came up. This is so important, I need to handle this." So yeah, and that's really just going to most likely be a pattern that you're going to see.
Julie:
Do you alert them or do you tell them that this is going to happen?
Heather:
You know, usually it happened while we're going through the process, the divorce, they see this. So yes, we then talk about it and say, all right, and particularly when we are crafting the parenting plan, because that is something that if we are in negotiation, we want to try to put some things in there that are specific, like if they're traveling. Let's say your ex is going to be moving somewhere and they're going to have to get there and back via an airplane. Now, one of the things, as an example, and this is a bit extreme, but just say, he really wanted the Orlando flight because it's a direct flight and we all know Orlando's bigger city than Jacksonville, but that requires you as the parent here to provide some of that transportation, and that's twice as far away.
So it's important to identify the airport and identify the times, because many times they're going to pick the 5:00 AM flight and that really impacts you, if you have to have them at the airport at 3:30 AM or 4:00. So things that, which that's because that's what we think of in our experience like, hey, if there's travel involved we need to put air flights, airline times will be between the hours of 9:00 and 9:00 or 9:00 and 10:00, and that depends on the age of the children, but knowing you're going to have to provide some of that transportation to the airport, and specifying which airport, because if you don't, don't be surprised when that's what they throw at you because that was the cheapest fight. They don't care or are considering really your schedule, what you and your child have to do to get to the airport.
Julie:
All righty. Okay, if you want to listen to the episode, the show that we did about co-parenting and parenting plans, you can go to our website, WomenWinningDivorce.com, to download that episode. What about finances? I mean, do they pay their fair share?
Heather:
Usually not, usually you really have to fight for it. When we do child support guidelines, that's a formula, it’s called the statutory percentage, and it really is based on earning. So it could be a 60/40, 70/30. Now, some out of pocket expenses may be on that same percentage automatically, some you need to maybe negotiate and look at, but generally it is going to be 50/50. Because maybe they're paying support and they still may not pay their fair share, because generally each parent has to pay the whole thing and get reimbursed, and that can be difficult for sure.
Julie:
Oh, okay, pay the whole thing and get reimbursed. All right, I wasn't expecting you to say that, but we're going to come back and we're going to talk about that because I can see how that can be an issue in any situation, even if you're not dealing with a narcissist. You're listening to Women Winning Divorce with Heather Quick, owner and attorney with Florida Women's Law Group. We're going to take a quick break here and when we return, we're going to talk more about those behaviors that you need to look out for. Stay with us.
Julie:
Welcome back to women winning divorce with Heather Quick, owner and attorney for Florida Women's Law Group. All right, Heather, when we signed off just a moment ago, something you mentioned that I thought was interesting, you said that usually one parent pays all the expenses up front and then they have to be reimbursed. That can be a challenge, even in just a regular situation, but with a narcissist, I have a feeling that's even more difficult.
Heather:
Well, yes, and you're right, it is. It's generally for, let's say copays, medical copays, but also a lot of time extracurricular. Those are when you really start to get into expensive things, and maybe if it's summer camps, that can be hard. So you really want to look at that language, which generally is two sentences in a 20 page parenting plan on that reimbursement. You really want to look at it and understand, how are we going to tell you, because if you're going to the doctor a lot or all these little expenses, I mean, everything adds up and it adds up quickly. Even the lunch account, who's going to be responsible? The more specific you can be in a parenting plan, with anybody but particularly with a narcissist, the better off you're going to be because you're trying to have a clear indication of how things are going to go as much as possible.
You're still never going to cover everything because that's just the way it works. Life, it moves and it's not always the same and different things happen. It's variable and sometimes you have to be flexible, but there are some types of expenses you can anticipate, and you know are going to happen. Therefore the more we can say, "When they go to the orthodontist, you both have to sign the contract on how it's going to get paid." Let’s say the daycare, the summer camp, that's fine, they don't care about the court order, it has to be paid and their job is not to call the father or you or anybody on their behalf. So that just is a challenge for you because it's nobody else. You want your kid in this camp or whatever, you have to make decisions early, and you have to pay and then wait to get reimbursed. So yes, that is a way they can control and manipulate the situation.
Julie:
Okay, that makes sense. That definitely makes sense. Another behavior that you can look out for is they're going to trash you to your kids. That's really not cool.
Heather:
No, it's not. That is a real problem, no doubt. What is hard, and therefore we'll talk about this a little bit later when we're talking about how to make it work and things like that, really this is one of those things where you take the high road. It will benefit you, and I'm not even talking about court. I am talking about this from experience as a child of divorce, as a parent, and as somebody who's represented hundreds, thousands of women over the years, take the high road. You don't talk about it, even if he does. Say, "Really, that's not the situation, but we're not going to discuss it." Now, some things of course, as your children get older, it does get harder. But if you get sucked into that, you really are harming the child, even though you think your defending yourself, but because you're just engaging in this stuff with them.
In a lot of ways, if they believe their dad and that's what they think, you might have to let that go a little bit. They're going to figure it out, they really will. Kids are smart. They are going through this time through divorce and many times they're manipulative if they're a teenager, and that would be normal for them to do that.Not maybe necessarily play each of you against each other, but they're looking for their advantage and that is normal behavior. They're looking for, where am I getting the best deal here? So that is difficult one to deal with, and if it's bad enough, maybe we do go back to court. But the proof in that, that comes really mostly through if the children are in counseling, many times that's really what they need to be in these cases.
Julie:
Okay, so going back to court. If I'm not mistaken, you said that that would be a very difficult thing to do, as far as redrafting this whole parenting plan.
Heather:
It's not a redrafting, it's more of an enforcement and, "He's in contempt, he is not following this. This is not in their best interest. This is what he's doing to the children and talking bad about me, alienating me." Again, we're not going to bring kids into the courtroom, that is a very rare circumstance and not usually a good idea at all. But if there's counselors, if there's teachers, if there's other people who are aware of this and/or changes in the child's behavior, there's lots of ways to get this evidence before the court. But then maybe we look to do that, to enforce and say, "He's violating this." The issue then becomes though, what's the remedy? A lot of times in a lawsuit people will say, "I was wronged by this person," and it looks pretty true you were, but again, then we go, "Well, what were the damages?" Okay, you were wronged, but there's nothing we can do to make it better.
So in this case, he's wrong, he's doing this, but what remedy do we want or what is available? Not what we want. We want as clients, as women, want him to have nothing to do with the kids. That's going to be a very drastic thing that's never likely going to be ordered by the court in less extreme circumstances. However, that's the part where you have to talk about it with your lawyer and we have to look at it. Okay, I think, yeah, we can definitely prove this, but what's the remedy? What are we going to ask for and what do we think will help that we think the judge can order?
So that is a big, big part of it, that a lot of times women don't think about, but they don't know. That's why you have to talk to a lawyer about this, because they may say, "Well, there is nothing we can do. Well, we have to talk about it, understand your circumstances. These are possible solutions that the court may be able to order." So that really goes hand-in-hand with that, because if we're going to court to say, "You're wrong," okay. But really we want to have an idea of what we want the judge to do, because I've been in the court before and the judge is like, "Well, what do you want me to do?" You need to tell them what you want them to do and what you think they should be able to do based on the law.
Julie:
But here's my thing, will the narcissists comply? Even if it's a court order, even if you've brought the judge into it, will they comply?
Heather:
Maybe, maybe not, and that's part of the question. Well, what if they don't? Well, it depends. If it's really the bad behavior and your children are suffering, you don't have a choice, in my opinion. That's harsh, but what else are you going to do? You're going to do nothing? No, we're going to try to get something to maybe get a counselor involved with them that is court ordered and that counselor can report back to the judge, and maybe their time does get restricted eventually. If they don't really participate effectively and openly in this counseling, but the child gets the counseling. Maybe there is a parenting coordinator that assists with making sure that the counseling is happening. So there are some things that can be done and it just depends on the situation and the severity of it.
Really, I think at the end of the day, how your children are doing. We weigh the pros and the cons and what we think, "this is what I think could be the remedy that potentially the judge could do or they could not." Again, because you have to go in front of a judge usually to enforce the parenting plan when the behavior gets really bad. So that becomes the issue, will they comply? Well, I don't know. Narcissists, again, we've talked about this, at the heart of it, they're a bully. They can't bully a judge. When you recognize the power that the courts have to put you in jail, they do, you walk in that courtroom and they have the power to have the bailiff take you to jail, not that I'm saying that is a remedy that you could get for this, it would have to be very extreme, but there is power.
The court system does have power, and once you have to go in person, now most of the courts are in person, which I think is a good thing, you kind of recognize that. I've seen situations where a judge really will dress somebody down, order something, and it's effective. But do I know? No, I don't know if it's going to be effective. If you're not willing to try, you're not willing to try, but that's all you can do. There are ways and things we can do, but then don't complain about it if you're not willing to try to go do something about it. That's kind of harsh as well, but either you're going to sit there and be a victim or you're going to stand up and take whatever actions are available to you.
Julie:
Right. So all of this, when a narcissist trashes you to your kids, it really is all about parental alienation.
Heather:
Yes. At its simplest, getting them to like them more than you. It can go really deep. On the surface level, they're the Disney dad, the one who gets them the new iPhone. They get them this, they get them that, they don't have to do chores, it doesn't matter. Then they come home with all this and they're like, "Mom, why don't you do this? Why don't we do X, Y, Z?" It is manipulation, it is through the money, and it can get worse. Then it can be the reverse too, where they won't get them anything and they're like, "Well, your mom took all my money, so I'm sorry, I can't get you that new pair of shoes, I can't give you money for lunch," or whatever. Usually that's an exaggeration and not true.
Either way, they're always, again, trying to paint you as the bad guy, them as the good guy in whatever, they're the best dad ever. Then, "Oh, don't you want to come live with us? It's so much better over here. We have this bigger house, new stuff, we got a puppy." Now they want to be with a puppy. Then sometimes they'll just buy the puppy and they're like, "Oh yeah, of course, take the puppy home." Then what if you are working and you're like, oh my gosh, I can't have a puppy, I don't know what to do. Then now you're the bad guy. How do you tell your kids, "No, we can't keep the puppy your dad gave you"?
Julie:
This all goes back to control and manipulation.
Heather:
Correct, and so it does change and kind of almost goes to a different level because you're no longer living in the house. But they're very adept and skilled at this kind of stuff, so they'll still do it in a lot of different ways, and those are some examples of some of the things that they may do.
Julie:
So when they do this, they try to alienate one parent, this is really putting the kids in the middle of all of your mess that should just really be between the parents, mom and dad.
Heather:
Indeed, and really he's creating the mess. There isn't a mess. It's one way versus the other, you don't need to tell them things, you should not show them the court papers. You should never disparage one parent over another, you shouldn't do any of that. I know, I see your face, you're like what, show them court papers?
Julie:
People do that?
Heather:
They do, they do. Again, there is no good purpose for that whatsoever to show those to your children, because at the end of the day, and let's just say both parents are wicked, awful, horrible, let's just say, let's even the playing field, they're both awful, well but they have children, and that child came from both of them. So when you disparage one versus the other, I mean, they're like, well, that's part of me and it's disparaging your child as well at some point. They may not recognize that right away, but they do, and they love both of you, even if you're both awful. Truthfully, that's the way kids are, they do until they get old enough to be like, all right, I need space from you, and how to adjust with that.
So that's the reality, is bringing them into your dirty laundry and your mess, they already know enough, they lived through it, they know enough from observation and living there that you don't like him and that y'all don't get along. So they know so much already, why bring them in more? Because it's just really going to affect them long term and they're going to resent you. They will absolutely resent the person talking bad about the other one, whether or not it's true. This is more about allowing children to be children. You know what, if you guys have to deal with your issues, deal with it and keep them separate. If you don't know how to do that, then seek some counseling to help you clarify that.
As the children get older, and if they've been empowered, this is just another thought I just had, if one of the parents has empowered these children with all this information, that can be that bratty teen or whatever, or even younger kid, confronting, "Well, dad showed me this or that." It's like you really have to establish boundaries because now there are two different houses and each person runs that house in their own way. You have to be the adult and set boundaries in your house with your children of how we're going to communicate about members of our family, even if they're not here, information I'm going to share with you, and the kind of conversations we're going to have. That is a way, if one parent has put them in the middle, to say, "These are the boundaries at this house, and when you go to that house they can be different. But when we're in this house, these are the rules and boundaries with which we are going to abide by."
Julie:
Boundaries, yeah.
Heather:
That is, as the caveat to everything, that is really easy for me to say. It takes a lot, it does. It takes a lot of work. You've been going through this process; you've gotten out of this relationship. You're like, I'm still dealing with it. I recognize that, I recognize it's still difficult to have to learn that. But if you have a few things you can do, because I know we've talked about this before, I think anybody who has kids, it's like, we can only control our reaction and our behavior, we cannot control another persons, but we can how we react to it and we can control how we're going to show up when these things are going on. That's all we can control and that can be part of what's distressful, because you can't control what's going on over there, but you couldn't anyway.
Julie:
You're listening to Women Winning Divorce with Heather Quick, owner and attorney with Florida Women's Law Group. When we return, we're going to talk about how to make it work. Stay with us.
Julie:
You're listening to Women Winning Divorce with Heather Quick, owner and attorney with Florida Women's Law Group. Heather, how to make it work, I mean, how can you? That's a really big question, but I know you have the answer.
Heather:
I have some answers and I have some tips. Again, you can only control what you can do, but when you have some of these, which really kind of from the last segment, they are boundaries, they are kind of the rules for which we're going to engage, if you will, that can be very helpful, and really most helpful for you, because then you kind of can know how to follow it. They may or may not follow it, but you're going to be better off knowing, hey, we have these guidelines.
We talked about this, I think, in the very beginning, the parenting plan and that it is as specific as possible, and details that are specific to your family that you know are issues. So, the more specific you can make a parenting plan that is tailored to your situation, the better off you're going to be, and that's just the reality. That includes their schedules, holidays, visitation. We talked about the financials, medical costs and extracurricular, and all the things that if left open to interpretation means he's open to switch it, manipulate it. Yes, you are trying to control everything by doing this in this parenting plan, but again, it gives you the rules by which to play with and engage with him can be very helpful.
Julie:
Now something, this just made me think about this, you, in order to get to this point where we're talking about these specifics, as far as the parenting plan is concerned, you have to truly understand and accept who you're dealing with.
Heather:
Agreed, yes. Yes, you do. Can you draft a parenting plan to address every single issue and thing that may come up? No, but there are some basics that you can really be specific and that sometimes can be extremely helpful.
Julie:
Yeah, and when we're talking about communication, really texting and email, I need to make sure that I have proof of what's being said.
Heather:
Yes, that's very helpful. Many times there are certain programs that are available, that have come up, that are used for the specific intention of communication between divorced parents. That can be a wonderful thing because it is a complete record. It's very easy to manipulate an email or text messages, "Oh, it only went back so far, so I only have so much," so many times that is an effective tool for communication. It does, and then it can be very specific in the writing. I mean, and at the end of the day, would it be better if you could pick up the phone and say, "Hey, can you pick up the kids today? I've got to work late," but you're not at that point right now, and you may not be with this person. So having a tool like that to communicate with can really give you a better management system for that.
Then I will also say, we have before in a parenting plan no more than two messages a day and it's reasonable to respond within 24 to 48 hours. Just because it's their emergency and they want an answer today, and coincidentally they're probably reaching out to you while you're working, or if they have the kids, you're working, you're adjusting to fill your time, but then they want you to be immediately responsive to their request. So sometimes if that has been an issue in the past, it's helpful and it's just recognizing, because I think we all recognize if it's an emergency, you need to pick up the phone. Most parenting plans will specify you ought to, and if the other person doesn't answer, then leave a very nice email and then you can follow up with a text, but you need to know that.
Then otherwise, anything you're going to send, we're in this automatic immediate society and it seems that you're so rude if you do not respond to a text instantaneously, or heaven forbid within an hour. But you know what, maybe you want to digest it and you don't want to be reactive, so you want to have 24 hours and there's nothing wrong with that. You divorced this person so that you don't have to have constant communication.
Julie:
Right. You know what, I find it interesting that there are programs that are designed just for this.
Heather:
Yes, and the courts love them because then the courts can get access and read it all, and they've become so advanced. I think they're very good tools, using technology to really help folks, because some of them have the spot where you can attach any bills, anything, and that's in the expenses. So you don't have to find those emails or wonder, you can just attach the bills and then respond. Now of course with all the, what are they? Cash apps called Zelle, Cash App and Venmo, you can easily provide reimbursement and proof of that in a way that. There's a lot of things that could be used to make it so much easier and it does provide a nice record. So yeah, those applications and things that are there specifically for parents in a divorce and post-divorce really are a great resource.
Julie:
Wow, I didn't even realize that. There's an app for everything or a tool for everything, there really is.
Heather:
Pretty much, I know, indeed.
Julie:
Now, one thing you said is that there could be a limit to the number of text messages or emails, because these things could be used just really just to torment you.
Heather:
Yes, and harass you and say, "Look how unresponsive they are." You're failure to plan doesn't make it my emergency that now at 2:00 you recognize you can't pick the kids up and then you're frantically trying to get in touch with me when I've made plans. Then later may say, "Well, I called like three times." It's like, yeah, within an hour, an email that is not on something that's an emergency that you could have foreseen and planned for. That's not me being unresponsive, that's you needing to plan. So that can come up, and a lot of times we will have seen that trend during the divorce and separation of a barrage of emails and texts at certain times. So, then there's a pattern about a history to say, "This is why we have to put a limit.” Again, set some rules of engagement here on what's appropriate and that's not appropriate it, and to expect immediate responses to all of them.
I know sometimes we sit down and email, and you do a lot of emails at once, but this is your child's parent. So it's like, what do you need to talk about? Sometimes even though, yes, we said text and email, sometimes you just kind of have to talk to them, as much as you don't want to. That's when one of the things to make it work is maybe you need a parenting coordinator. Those are cases that are high conflict, that it is ordered by the court, they have experience, and they kind of help the two of you navigate when there are difficulties. That's usually post-divorce but having a parenting coordinator can be very effective.
Julie:
Interesting. Okay, so we just went in a different direction. Okay, we're going to talk about parenting coordinators, I'm sure, at some point, because I didn't realize that person existed. There's a job for that?
Heather:
There is, there is. Usually they have some type of therapeutic background, and sometimes they have legal backgrounds, so they understand the family law process. It is a therapeutic tool that can be ongoing. It's much more effective than each side having their attorney trying to deal with parenting issues. That's where you need to go and try to get through many of these issues. When a disagreement comes up, rather than call your lawyer, let's go there. It’s a little more than just the family counseling, it's that extra level and it can be effective. It's still a challenge because the people, they haven't changed who they are, but now they've got a very clear parenting plan and the rules. So now having a parenting coordinator involved, and counseling usually for the kid, that can really bring them to terms that maybe won't be as adversarial and it can be more efficient. So that is definitely a way to make it work.
When we were talking earlier about remedies and I said, "You never really know," that could be a remedy. There are so many things out there now and new things happen all the time, so that's a cool idea. This is what this person specializes in and that may be helpful to your particular situation. They may not go voluntarily, but when you're having a lot of issues, maybe that is something through a court order that could assist the two of you in navigating the co-parenting world. So that's when I say, for the woman dealing with this, it may get to a point he's out of control and you really just can't seem to get past it. He still has all this behavior, the kids are suffering and it's just nonstop, that may be the time that you do have to go back and get a court order on something that may help, but then at least if it doesn't, you tried it and the court is aware.
If you just suffer through it all for years, there's not really any evidence of anything that you've tried to do, and that's why it's important to, when things get tough, seek advice to at least find out if there are potential remedies. You may think, I don't want to do that, but at least you checked it out. Because like you said, they may not know there's apps to help communicate, there's a parenting coordinator, there's different types of therapy that can be ordered. There's lots of things that may apply, so if you're feeling it's so bad and that narcissist still has such a hold on you, and the kids are really suffering because he's not really prioritizing the kids, it may be time to talk to a lawyer to determine what could be done.
Julie:
Oh, wow. Okay, so this is something that you could go back and ask for. If you felt like it wasn't necessary at the beginning, it's something you can possibly ask for in the court later?
Heather:
Correct, because things maybe weren't as adversarial, or a lot of this behavior wasn't exaggerated, or it really wasn't causing problems, say during the divorce. So it wasn't an issue where we're like, I think we should have parenting coordination, and because that's costly too, of course. You're going to have to pay for that help you and you're probably going to both have to share it. So you may think at the divorce, I don't know, we don't want to engage in this. I think that now that we've got everything set, we're going to be fine.
So yes, it is something that can be ordered later on, and sometimes that is more appropriate because you're like, we've tried this for a couple years, these are where the problems are. In talking that through with an attorney and/or a therapist, they may say, "Well, I know people are doing this or there's this option," so that's there. Sometimes there are a lot of options, sometimes there aren't, but that's where you have to investigate and understand, this situation is getting kind of crazy and we've still got five or six years left where these kids are under 18, or maybe even three years, but the kids are really suffering and I want to do something about it.
Julie:
Okay, Heather, there are so many places we could go from here, but unfortunately we are out of time. Is there anything else that you'd like to add on this topic?
Heather:
Again, I know these can be difficult times, and for somebody in it listening, they may think, oh, that sounds so easy to do. I recognize that and I think as a parent myself, we all are trying to be the best parents we can be. We can only control ourselves. You can't control your ex, but if things are bad, reach out and at least find out if that's something that we can help you with, because we have so much experience in the courts, and that's the beauty of it. We deal with so many particular different situations that different remedies, different solutions come up because we've all been doing this for so long and we just have a vast knowledge of experience with our team. Reach out and let's see.
That's the one thing we're always going to tell you the truth, and maybe what you need to hear, not what you want to hear. We're going to let you know if we think one, this is a possible remedy and we think we have a shot at it, or not, but this is maybe a way to get there. Sometimes it's not ready yet, but this is maybe how you could better position yourself and this situation to be ready to file in court and succeed. So reach out to us if you are a woman going through this, or certainly if you know someone that is, we are definitely here to help you.
Julie:
Heather, it's always a pleasure to see you.
Heather:
Thank you, Julie, so much. Pleasure to see you as well.
Julie:
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