In this episode, we dive deeper into how the narcissist isolates and gaslights their partners. Heather discusses the narcissist's cycle of abuse and what is included in each phase.
"Women Winning Divorce" is a radio show and podcast hosted by Heather Quick, CEO and Owner of Florida Women's Law Group. Each week we focus on different aspects of family law to help guide women through the difficult and emotional legal challenges they are facing. Heather brings over 20 years of law experience that advocates and empowers women to achieve happier and healthier lives. Join Heather each week as she discusses family law issues including divorce, custody, alimony, paternity, narcissism, mediation and more.
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Women Winning Divorce
Episode 16
Narcissist Abuse Cycle
Julie Morgan:
Welcome to Women Winning Divorce with your host Heather Quick. Heather brings over 20 years of law experience that advocates and empowers women to achieve happier and healthier lives. Each week, we provide knowledge and guidance on different aspects of family law to help lead women through the difficult and emotional legal challenges that they are facing. Listen in as she discusses issues, including divorce, custody, alimony, paternity, narcissism, mediation, and other family law issues. To provide insight on the journey of women winning divorce. Welcome to the show. I'm Julie Morgan, and I'm joined by your host Heather Quick.
Julie Morgan:
Good morning, Heather. How are you today?
Heather Quick:
I'm doing great, Julie. How are you today?
Julie Morgan:
I'm doing very well, thank you. Narcissism, we are back on this topic because there's a lot to talk about.
Heather Quick:
There is so much to talk about that. We really could go on for weeks. I know we're trying to hit the highlights, but some things just need more discussion, and some things just bring up more questions. I'm glad that we are continuing on this topic because I have no doubt listeners from last week wanting more and probably have so many questions stemming from that last episode.
Julie Morgan:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Exactly. And you know what? It was very early on in the last episode that we realized, this is going to take a few weeks as far as this topic is concerned because there's so much to cover.
Why don't you give us a quick recap of the characteristics of a narcissist.
Heather Quick:
There are so many ways you can classify a narcissist, and I want to preface it by saying, it goes to the pathological side. We're not talking about somebody who is kind of vain. I mean, that's one of the things, but everything here we discuss really goes to the extreme. They have to be the center of attention to the point that they will belittle you around them to create a sense of importance and more of a spotlight on themselves.
They have a very high opinion of themselves that might partly be true, like I said, there is a part of it that drives narcissist to be very successful, but again, it's goes on the pathological side. They're extremely controlling over everybody in their life. They really can be quite charming as well. There's a lot of things that you would think as you begin to hear the characteristics, oh, that doesn't seem that bad. That's why we talk about how it tips over to the other side.
Julie Morgan:
Okay and you know what? I like the way you clarified the fact that, this isn't just one trait, it's not just one thing like someone has a sense of a vanity about them or they maybe controlling. It's a list. It's all of these things together and a pattern of these things as well.
Heather Quick:
The biggest part is, they really treat the woman, the partner, in their life as a possession and something with which to control. It's something that, think of it as nice piece of jewelry or your nice house, it's another piece of what makes them in their mind this perfect package. So you're part of a part they're playing and that's why they expect you to be a certain way and they want to control everything about you.
Julie Morgan:
Oh my. Are there any characteristics that we did not get to last week?
Heather Quick:
I don't think that we really dove into the isolation/control. I think we mentioned the gaslighting, but I don't think we really dove into it last week. I think we may have touched on it a bit.
Julie Morgan:
Okay. So let's talk about those today, definitely. When we talk about isolation, I mean, does this mean just totally cutting me off from my family and friends?
Heather Quick:
Yes. It doesn't happen like a switch, it’s like, I just met you, you're telling me I can't talk to my parents or my friends. This happens slowly and truly methodically over time. What women will say, in my experience, they come in and they're like, I just have no connections, it’s over time. Now we never go visit my family, they don't come over. We can't go see them at Christmas time. I never go out with my friends. All of a sudden, they feel very alone and isolated.
Julie Morgan:
Okay. And I know I always get ahead. I really wanted you to touch on that one because it just seems like that is dangerous as well, but we're going to get into that just a little bit more. Talk to me about the narcissist abuse cycle, you mentioned earlier, there's a pattern that they follow.
Heather Quick:
We've done the research as well to look at what the mental health professionals have to say? What are the experts out there saying about it? What we have found is really within this cycle, there're about four stages, idealize, devalue, discard and hoover.
Julie Morgan:
Okay. All right. So let's take these one by one, idealize. What does that mean? Exactly?
Heather Quick:
This is why it's so startling to women later on, because this is the first phase, and... Of course, we're talking about this from the standpoint of the male narcissist, percentage wise, more men are narcissists to this level than women. This is when the women get sucked into what they think is the perfect relationship. They are flattering you, they're giving you so much attention, gifts, flowers, just really fawning over you to the extent that you are, if you are susceptible to this and attracted probably to them, you're going to fall for hook line and sinker.
Julie Morgan:
Okay, I'm trying not to get ahead of myself. I try not to get ahead of everything. But this seems like this is the stage when they start the isolation process.
Heather Quick:
Yes. In a way, though, that is flattering. Well, they want to be with you. Oh my gosh, I'm going to miss you so much. I bought tickets to this concert tonight, are you sure you can't go, I'd love for you to go. So see how that seems innocent in a way. Or I'm going to work out, that's when I do my yoga classes, oh, let me go. I'd love to go; I've always wanted to try that. When you're new in a relationship where you're like, oh wow, that's different. They want to be with me. They want to try something that I like. So see how that could not really be noticed as anything bad. I just want to be clear, and sometimes it's not, but that is why this happens so often. Suddenly, one day you wake up, you're like, what has happened to me? What has this person really orchestrated?
Julie Morgan:
You don't even realize it. I know I said this multiple times last week, but you don't even realize it.
Heather Quick:
You really don't. That's where again, and we always say this, but I think it's so important as you're listening to this, the last thing I want anyone to feel is shame or embarrassment at all. It could be really a painful revelation, but you recognize it and you may even say oh yeah, I was in something similar with somebody like that.
Julie Morgan:
Okay. All right. Because I think I could probably stay on this one for a while, idealize, because this is where it all begins.
Heather Quick:
Yes, and the relationship typically moves fast. As part of that, I want to be with you, let's go here, let's be together. Sometimes you may even ignore a sense of, this seems a little fast or whatever, your gut instincts, which unfortunately humans ignore way too often. That's a whole different topic that fascinates me, I've read and listened about that a lot. All other mammals and animals listen to their instincts when something is like, run, we don’t rely on the senses that are available to us that are telling you, this is too fast, this is not quite right. So, you discount that feeling. But I will say, you're enjoying the attention, most likely, because if you're not enjoying it, you're out. So you're enjoying a lot of it and it's moving so fast.
Julie Morgan:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Okay. All right. Okay. Julie is not going to stick to one topic, at least not one phase, we have to go to the second phase. The second phase is devalue. What does that mean?
Heather Quick:
This is the phase when the mask comes off and now, you're starting to see the real person, but they have totally drawn you in. I mean, you are hooked, you're in, and then there are beginning to be subtle changes. And that's when maybe you're going to experience some of this emotional and verbal abuse.
Julie Morgan:
Now, I think about this, and kind of go back to the first one, a little bit, idealized to devalue. How long does it take to get from one phase to another or does it vary?
Heather Quick:
It really varies. I think it varies on the individuals because it could be days, weeks, it could even be years. Doubtful this first phase lasts for a while. They're not going to be able to keep that up because they are pouring this attention on you, but they are the one who seek the attention. Really, they're pouring this attention on you, say if you've been in that you can see, but really, they were getting a lot of attention from you as well.
It was still feeding that need of their self-importance. The devalue part could peak and then go back because that's what somebody who is abusive does. They're going to treat you poorly, then make up for it, apologize, and just keep you on a rollercoaster whirlwind like, did they really say that? Did that really happen? Because look at how wonderful this person was when we first met. Again, you start wondering, you really are in a situation where you don't even trust your sense of this is right, this is wrong.
Julie Morgan:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Okay. And that's the pathological part, which is scary.
Heather Quick:
It is scary because they are very skilled at this and they are really manipulating you. They are manipulating you to the extent that you really begin to doubt your own judgement of character. What is going on here? Then they're going to apologize, and then tear you down again. Your self-esteem begins to suffer and really that’s what they want. Think about that idealize stage, they've put you up on this pedestal and now they're tearing you down, but then they can shower you again with love and attention. I mean, you're in the relationship because it is meeting some kind of need of yours, not the negative side, but the positive. As a human being, I think that's fair to say, it's not casting any blame, but if you've ever been in that relationship or you are in that, the sooner you can say, “I can recognize what need this fulfills” you can maybe not get into the same one again. I mean, you can fall for these kind of guys again and again.
Julie Morgan:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). When we talk about the second phase of devaluing a person, it's insult, it's blame, it's shame, accusations. This is just horrible.
Heather Quick:
It is and they're twisting your words, so again, you're doubting, did I say this? Because think about this, they are treating you like this, but they're making it your fault. Remember the narcissist, they never take responsibility for themselves or their actions. This is when you're going to really start to question your sanity and doubt yourself and wonder, what is going on? How is it my fault that this happened? Why is he treating me and talking to me so badly? That's where then it really starts to get into your psyche.
Julie Morgan:
I think about that, if you are aware of what's happening, if you've possibly listened to this show, and this happens to you in the future, maybe hopefully at this stage, you may get someone that will help you. Then they can tell you, this isn't right. They can help you in that direction.
Heather Quick:
Correct. By the time you're at even any of these phases though, you're really entrenched because that's their goal, they want you relying on them. They have moved in, you've moved in. Probably you've moved in with them or they've moved into your home and wanted to be on the title, and now all your stuff is combined making it that much harder for you to leave. Or they tell you to sell your house, put that money into my house, move in, and all could be seeming, wow, this is wonderful. For their friends and family on the outside they may think, this seems fast, maybe too good to be true. Are you really sure about this?
That's when that separation, which we're not there yet, but like that isolation part, because they aren't in this relationship, the narcissist isn't winning them over. On the outside they're like, this is fast, Julie, are you sure you want to sell everything you own and put it into the remodel of their house and move in after two weeks of dating? I'm exaggerating, but you're like, oh my gosh, why would you say that? I love him. He's so wonderful. He treats me so great. Then you're not going to want to talk about him as much to them. He's going to shower you with, they're just jealous, they don't understand our love.
You know what I mean? These are like pretty textbook things, but it works, because we're somewhat acting on the emotions, not acting on rational thought. He is warping all of that so that you really aren't doubting yourself, you know what I mean? Pathological and really kind of eerie, because this is the pattern, and this happens over and over and over again to women all the time.
Julie Morgan:
Okay. We definitely need to talk more about that. You're listening to Women Winning Divorce with Heather Quick. Owner and attorney for Florida Women's Law Group. We're taking a quick break here and when we return, we're going to talk about phases three and four, stay with us. Welcome back to Women Winning Divorce with Heather Quick, owner and attorney for Florida Women's Law Group.
Julie Morgan:
All right, Heather. We're talking about narcissist abuse... I can't even say it. You know what? I shouldn't be able to say it. This is just bad. The narcissist abuse cycle.
So, we've talked about phases one and two, idealize and devalue. Quite honestly, based on all the things that you said in the first segment of the show, we could keep talking about that, but we're going to move along. Phase three, what is phase three?
Heather Quick:
Phase three is discard.This is really the hardest emotionally, because from the woman's perspective, it just comes out of nowhere. You think things are fine and then maybe you get a text or phone call potentially ending the relationship in a very cold and callous way. Maybe the narcissist feels they're done with you and now they're moving on to another source of energy. However, what I see more commonly, because that's more of like maybe a relationship that doesn't go to the long-term relationship of marriage.Most narcissists use the silent treatment. They just ignore you. They will come home and not talk to anybody, and it is creepy and weird and mean, and this can go on for days, weeks, sometimes, even months.That is obviously very emotionally abusive, bizarre, I know, but it's real for sure.
Julie Morgan:
That does something to you mentally as well. Emotionally.
Heather Quick:
Yes, she is saying what did I do? Why won’t they even speak to me?
Julie Morgan:
Yeah. Wow. Okay. Yeah. So there's just a breakdown mentally, there's a breakdown emotionally. I wonder when they see this, how do they feel? You know what I mean? Do they really get this sense of power? That's sick? You know what I mean? So I think about this, it's emotional, it's mental. I mean, this is really doing a number on you. It really is.
Heather Quick:
It is and what does that do now? They are really controlling you. By then they've watched you break down. This depends on the person, but they might be like, oh, okay, maybe I'll let you come back. Meanwhile, you’re thinking, I didn't even do anything. They continue this cycle because they see, oh, I do have so much control, they're falling apart. Well, now I am the most important thing. It's not, obviously we've talked about a normal relationship, it's extremely dysfunctional. Most of the things they do are to feed their ego, give them that sense of power and control over a human being. You're not in a relationship with this person, you are, but you're not a partner with them. You are a part of their property.
You're one of their props let's say. That's the way I think their mind looks at. They're like, I don't think I want you anymore. But then maybe, if you give them all this tension, yes I do, or they do this silent treatment, and then it really drives you crazy. You're like, why won't you talk to me? What have I done? You're assuming you did something and then you're obviously trying to please them even more. They really get a thrill from that, that power sense.
Julie Morgan:
You know, something you just said is interesting, how these things or these phases, they really overlap. We are on discard, and you said that, they may start to make you feel like you're the greatest person in the world and suddenly, I'm not going to talk to you, but then they start to make you feel good after they've said I won't talk to you. This is going back to the first phase, which, I mean, is to idealize. So they really all overlap, they can go back from phase to phase.
Heather Quick:
I don't know if we've talked about it, but there's a lot of literature out there and research, the cycle of abuse. That's specifically the physical, the domestic violence, but things go in a circle back and forth because it's manipulation. If you are in a relationship that's not manipulative, you have a fight, whatever, get back, figure it out or not, and move on with your life in the normal course of things. But in this you're going to see things repeating and repeating because it's not a normal functional relationship. So dysfunctional because of where they're coming from, that they keep you on almost this tail spin, just like you just don't ever know what's going to happen today when they come home.
You'll hear the phrase, where the woman will say, we feel like we're walking on eggshells at the house because you don't know if he's just going to lose it and then not talk to anybody. He has this power because now he's making you question your own self in your house, like, am I going to make him mad? How do I keep him happy? What am I going to say? Is that going to tip them off? So that's a lot of control.
Julie Morgan:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Okay. So after discard, there's hoovering. All right. What is that?
Heather Quick:
Well, so they don't ever really leave, it's kind of when they suck you back in. They might say, it’s over. I'm not interested in you. Or even if we look at that silent treatment, they'll bring you back, again because it's this pathological control. Maybe they do this whole crying, I love you, I'm so sorry, fake promises again, right back to the idealized, but it's in a way that they haven't really gone away. If they think that you have left, they're going to do whatever it takes to get you back, and they're going to make promises.
We see this a lot in the divorce process. He says, he's going to do this, he says he's going to do that. Well, that's not what their lawyer is saying and that's not the reality of what is happening. They're just still trying to manipulate the situation, whether they really want you back or not, I don't know, but they're going to continue to manipulate and try to get you back again, exert control. Even if they're the ones that broke up with you and you've moved on and you're like, okay, I'm done. Let me see if I can get her back.
Julie Morgan:
Okay. So just when you thought they were gone, they come back kind of like a fly at a picnic.
Heather Quick:
Exactly and that's why you may never understand them. That's not as much the point as understanding yourself so that you don't get suck backed in. Understand that you can control your emotions, you can understand why you were susceptible, why you began the relationship. More than that, I believe that you can prepare yourself and safeguard yourself from getting sucked back into that relationship or another one with the same type of guy, because that is a pattern that can absolutely happen.
Julie Morgan:
That's powerful. It's more about understanding who you are as a person as opposed to really recognizing these signs, because what you can do yourself, it's empowering yourself.
Heather Quick:
Exactly, and understanding that you've got to get away from this, you've got to heal, and you must build back your self-esteem and begin to repair your confidence and your own decision making. Because I'm telling you, it doesn't seem like they're all the same, until it's over or until you're in it. Then it's like, oh, wow, these were all very similar. But humans are different, some things showed itself and exhibited a little different way, and maybe not, some could be more extreme than others.
I think the value is, one, recognizing this is not healthy, it’s not a functional relationship.Getting out and then understanding, I was at a point in my life and this is why I think this was something I fell for or why it felt so good. Now, what can I understand about the next time? Because again, a lot of the beginning of a relationship is normal and then a lot's not. I think that's the best way that I hope women can use this information to, one, recognize that they're in a situation, to get out, but then also, recognizing maybe what was part of themselves that they fell prey to this kind of manipulation.
Julie Morgan:
Yeah. Some of this is normal, which is why you shouldn't feel bad, you should not feel guilty if this is something you fall prey to, because some of this is normal behavior.
Heather Quick:
Yes, and we all like gifts and we all like attention.
Julie Morgan:
Yeah.
Heather Quick:
I mean, I think so. I do.We're not talking about it in a normal way, we're talking to the extreme.
Julie Morgan:
Right. Exactly. Let's touch on, and we're going to touch on this even more in the third segment, let's start talking about manipulation tactics.
Heather Quick:
Yes, that's what I talked about because they are master manipulators. They're going to use spouses, children, friends, work colleagues. They're just really good. It's just the way they operate. This is the normal way they operate by manipulating people. It's not being a persuasive person, but it's really just manipulating things to go in the way that you want. One thing we talked about in idealize, love bombing. Now you're going to love that.
They are showering you with admiration, gifts, flattery and attention. I mean, when you're not susceptible to this, you're like, this is a lot, you don't really even know me yet. If somebody is just fawning all over you and giving you gifts and flattering, all this stuff, I think there's a part of most of us that will be like, you don't even really know me yet, how do you know I'm all that great? I mean, maybe I am, but you don't know me yet. You have to give me time to show you how wonderful I am.
Julie Morgan:
Right. Okay. Yeah. You know that love bombing. Okay. We have to get back to this. We do. Because something you said, it's their normal behavior. So this is something that they do with not only their spouse or their significant other, but their children, their friends, their work colleagues. This is normal behavior, and that's again where the pathological part comes in. Okay. Heather, we're working with it now. All right.
You're listening to Women Winning Divorce with Heather Quick, owner and attorney for Florida Women's Law Group. We're taking a break here and when we return, we're talking more about manipulation tactics, stay with us. Welcome back to Women Winning Divorce with Heather Quick. Owner and attorney for Florida Women's Law Group, Heather, love bombing. Yeah. You know what? Okay. That's a red flag. That's what that is. It's a red flag.
Heather Quick:
Yes, and you're going to be more susceptible to this if maybe you've just gone out of a relationship. Your self-esteem may be low, you're having a difficult time in life, but there's something that's making you more vulnerable to this that they can spot because you're going to respond. In your normal judgment of somebody with your normal feelings, you'd be like, this is a little much, they're really laying it on, but you're not, that's not where you are at the time. That's why I think that it works so well when it does because of where you are at that point. You're more susceptible to it, more open to it and more willing to ignore your gut.
Julie Morgan:
That goes back to what you said in the second segment of the show, by the way, if you missed the second segment or even the first, you can go to our website, womenwinningdivorce.com. So you can download the podcast in previous episodes. This really goes back to what you said in segment two, when you talked about... I just lost my thought. So I don't even remember just now, but that's okay. We're going to keep going.
Heather Quick:
Well, it's a lot.
Julie Morgan:
Yeah.
Heather Quick:
It's a plethora of information. I know, Julie, I know the way your mind works, you got all these questions. S0 now you're like, wait, I had a question, but now we're talking about something else. So-
Julie Morgan:
I know.
Heather Quick:
I know and it's just a lot. It’s almost like, is this real and true, but it is, and it happens so often. One of the manipulation tactics that we've touched on and I want to go in a little bit deeper is called gaslighting. This is really one of the narcissist favorite tactics, total mind control, emotional abuse. They really make you doubt yourself and think you're crazy.
I mean, they're going to deny things that they have said or done, or that you've done something that you didn't do, to the point that you're really questioning yourself, your memories, your beliefs. They'll leave the house, leave all the lights on, you come home and they're like, why did you leave all the lights on? It starts like that, little basically, why would you do that? That's so wasteful and you're thinking, I didn't do that. They know they did it. They're planting these little seeds really making you kind of go crazy and you're already isolated at this point. So it's not like you've got many friends or family around you.
Julie Morgan:
Oh my. I remembered all of a sudden what I was going to say, thank you so much, Heather. I really appreciate you. But it goes back to knowing yourself and trying to understanding who you are and how you possibly got into this situation. That's really important. Doing little things to make you think you're crazy. You left all the lights on. I know when I left the house all the lights were off. Okay. So what's happening here?
Heather Quick:
Yeah, and that's leaving things on and blaming you for things that you know you didn't do. It's so insidious and happens slowly. It's just things like that. Well, you told me you were doing this tonight or making dinner, why isn't there dinner? You really begin to doubt, did I say that? Did I do that? I don't remember. And that's how it starts.
Julie Morgan:
That's a sick game.
Heather Quick:
It is.
Julie Morgan:
I used to work with someone like that. That is just, oh boy, I tell you. That's interesting. Give me another manipulation tactic.
Heather Quick:
I mean, we talked about this a little bit, degrade, shame and criticize. That's typical, very textbook bully. I mean, they're a bully. It gives them this feeling of superiority. They are going to criticize you constantly; they're going to do it in public and they're going to really make you look and feel horrible. They believe this makes them look better.
Julie Morgan:
But everyone else is looking at this person saying, there's something wrong with you. Why did you just do that? Why did you just say that?
Heather Quick:
Very often, yes, they have manipulated you in the situation so much that you're not even going to believe somebody telling you that this is wrong, you're in a bad situation. You know shouldn't be doing this to you, because you feel trapped and you're so ingrained in this relationship.
Julie Morgan:
What is projection?
Heather Quick:
This is where the narcissist basically projects their undesirable or their bad behavior on you, because remember, they're never wrong. They are never wrong, you are always to blame. They cheated, had an affair, and we're getting a divorce, but then it's all your fault. It's all your fault, why are you doing this to me? Wait a minute, didn't you cheat, leave and file for divorce, and now you're blaming me? I mean, if there's not a clear picture, that is not your fault, you didn't even do that, but they absolutely are going to blame you. Now you're confused, why are you blaming me for this? Why are you so mad at me? You're the one that left. You're the one that wanted this.
Julie Morgan:
I wonder if people are driving in their cars now or sitting at their desk at work and they're listening to this and they say, oh boy, under narcissism in the dictionary, I see a picture of this person that I know.
Heather Quick:
I would be very, I was going to say shocked if not everybody has like a picture of somebody, they're like, yeah, I've met that person, I've seen that person, or I've been in a relationship with that person.
Julie Morgan:
Yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative). You know what, I said, I've worked with one person. I see several people in this that I'm.. I really do. I really do. That's sad that there's so many of them walking around.
Heather Quick:
Well, indeed, and like I said, there's a lot of range. Certainly, you see these different behavioral traits. It's the compounding of it and then going again to the negative side and the pathological behavior that they have towards somebody they're supposed to love. That's what's so sad, for so many women is that they are in this relationship and they don't see a way out.
Julie Morgan:
Yeah. This is a question I've asked multiple times on this podcast, why do women stay? Is it because they just don't see a way out?
Heather Quick:
I think so. I think, again, we talked about denial is obviously a coping mechanism and fear. That's why the research even on domestic violence, I mean, you're getting physically abused. This is certainly mental and emotional abuse, but you know what it is. The fear of leaving is in the unknown, it really does prevent you from taking that step. It's what you tell yourself, it's scary to do something new and different, even if you could be much better off for it. It's hard. Change is difficult for so many people. For all of us, to one extent or another. It's an extreme and it's really hard sometimes to say, all right, I'm going to stand up for myself, or I don't want to be in this relationship.
We can create so many reasons not to leave. None of which are rational and none of which are really based in reality, but that's the way the human mind works because there's a part of your subconscious that thinks, well, this is safe. The bills are paid, I live here. I know what to expect, and I don't know what's going to happen, and I don't know how he is going to behave. There are many women who are very, very scared of a divorce. Because think about this kind of guy, how he has treated you when you are married. They're really worried about what he's going to do to them if they file for divorce and leave, and how angry he will be, and he will take away the kids, he won't give me any money, he's going to ruin my reputation. There are a lot of things and that fear certainly is based on the behavior, but they've made sure you are aware of that. They want you to be afraid to leave. They want you right where they want you until they're done.
Julie Morgan:
One of the things you just said was they want to make sure you understand that this could happen, and it's because it has already happened. This is obviously a pattern, it's a cycle, it's pathological. Just think about if someone gives you the silent treatment during this time, after you've said that you're going to leave, you don't know what's happening, you don't know what's going on in their mind, because they're not saying anything, and you just don't know what's next.
Heather Quick:
Correct.
Julie Morgan:
Wow. That's scary. It really is. Yeah. That someone could think about ways to manipulate you and you end up with this, you know?
Heather Quick:
Yes. It's true and it's sad. It's very dysfunctional. It's an illness. I mean, it is clearly a psychiatric disorder and it's very common.
Julie Morgan:
We've gone through several manipulation techniques, but this can't be all of them.
Heather Quick:
No, these are the most popular that I think most people can recognize and see. But again they're manipulating you from the very beginning, manipulating your feelings. Now they are your own feelings. They're manipulating the situation. They're creating a false reality. Once you're with them and the manipulation, can seem positive or negative, but at the end of the day, they're orchestrating this entire thing. It’s to get a reaction out of you and the control over you where you just have a need to please them, you have a need to make them, they're thriving off these feelings of superiority.
Julie Morgan:
How do you make it stop?
Heather Quick:
You have to leave. I mean, you have to remove yourself from the relationship. I did an interview with a psychologist several years ago and she said, it's very unlikely, if it's extreme, that they're going to really change, because they're not going to see anything wrong with themselves. They don't. It's really impossible for them to see anything wrong with themselves. Why would I want help? They'll be like, you need help. You're the one who is the problem in the relationship. You go get counseling, I'm not getting counseling. If you're in that situation, yes, counseling is going to maybe give you some clarity on your situation, and clarity on that relationship, which can then help get strong enough to seek, what are your options? Should you file for divorce? How are you going to make that happen?It is the first step, you have to remove yourself from that relationship.
Julie Morgan:
But then they could be back. They could come back
Heather Quick:
Most likely. So you have to get yourself strong, reconnect with the people that you became isolated from, from people who truly care about you, love you in a healthy way.
Julie Morgan:
Oh my. Heather, we've gotten more to talk about.
Heather Quick:
Yes, we do.
Julie Morgan:
Next week we're going to talk more about the narcissist, and what it's like to be married to one. Anything else you'd like to add this week?
Heather Quick:
Only that I certainly appreciate everyone who has listened. If you find yourself in this situation or know someone who is, please reach out to us to discuss your options and what's available to you, because that's why we're here, we deal with this all the time.
Julie Morgan:
Yes. Well, Heather, it was great to see you again.
Heather Quick:
Great to see you, Julie. Thank you so much.
Julie Morgan:
Thank you for listening to Women Winning Divorce. We hope you found information to help you navigate your divorce. If you like our show, please take the time to subscribe and provide a five star review. If you need more information, please visit our website @womenwinningdivorce.com, where you will find previous episodes and other helpful content. Join us next week as we continue our journey of Women Winning Divorce.