In this episode, Heather begins a series how to identify and divorce a narcissist. Do you ever feel as if your feelings and needs are constantly being ignored by your significant other? Is there pressure to always say or do the right thing to keep your partner happy? These are common feelings for someone in a relationship with a narcissist. Check out this episode to help identify whether you may be married to a narcissist and how to get help.
"Women Winning Divorce" is a radio show and podcast hosted by Heather Quick, CEO and Owner of Florida Women's Law Group. Each week we focus on different aspects of family law to help guide women through the difficult and emotional legal challenges they are facing. Heather brings over 20 years of law experience that advocates and empowers women to achieve happier and healthier lives. Join Heather each week as she discusses family law issues including divorce, custody, alimony, paternity, narcissism, mediation and more.
This program was created to provide tips and insight to women with family law issues. It is not intended to be legal advice because every situation is different.
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Women Winning Divorce
Episode 15
Identifying a Narcissist
Julie Morgan:
Welcome to Women Winning Divorce with your host, Heather Quick. Heather brings over 20 years of law experience that advocates and empowers women to achieve happier and healthier lives. Each week, we provide knowledge and guidance on different aspects of family law, to help lead women through the difficult and emotional legal challenges that they are facing. Listen in as she discusses issues, including divorce, custody, alimony, paternity, narcissism, mediation, and other family law issues to provide insight on the journey of Women Winning Divorce. Welcome to the show. I'm Julie Morgan, and I'm joined by your host, Heather Quick. Hi, Heather. How are you today?
Heather Quick:
I'm great, Julie. How are you?
Julie Morgan:
I'm doing very well. We're about to get into a topic that's a really good one.
Heather Quick:
Yes. This one's juicy, and I know that our listeners have been waiting for it, because we've been teasing them all along with all of our topics.
Julie Morgan:
Yeah. Heather, seriously. You said the listeners have been waiting, I've been waiting for this one, too.
Heather Quick:
I know, I know. It's true. It's so fascinating and hard to believe at the same time, so it's a good topic for sure.
Julie Morgan:
Yes, it is. I know everyone's listening and they're thinking, "What in the world is she talking about?" All right, narcissism. How would you define a narcissist?
Heather Quick:
If you look at the dictionary definition of a narcissist, it is someone who has an excessive interest in themselves or admiration of themselves, so that's a very basic definition.
Julie Morgan:
You know what? I'm sitting here, I'm thinking, "Everyone really likes themselves." Well, we would like to think that everyone really likes themselves, but one of the words that you just used was excessive.
Heather Quick:
That's really the definition, and it will become clear as we go through. I'm not talking about somebody who likes to look nice or looks at themselves in the mirror. It goes beyond and then that's where it becomes really pathological. It crosses that line and I'm hopeful as we go through it that'll be clear, that this is different than what is maybe, "Hey, I like looking at myself. I like to look nice." It's a little bit more than that.
Julie Morgan:
Right. You know what? I actually have this question down. It's more than just high self-esteem.
Heather Quick:
Correct. Actually, it stems from a low self-esteem, because then you just put on this crazy behavior and treat other people so badly that you're feeding some hole in yourself.
Julie Morgan:
As with many other things, there are levels to narcissism, right?
Heather Quick:
Yes.
Julie Morgan:
What are some of those levels?
Heather Quick:
There are certain extremes and then there's some mild areas. I would imagine all of us at one point, we exhibit some of this; not everybody, but a lot, but that doesn't mean it's the full personality disorder. If you look at it, and this is funny to me, but yet this is an example, someone who takes lots of selfies. Okay, well that is all children at this point, so that's not who I'm talking about; is really constantly talking about themselves. They may have a level of narcissism and we all know them, you can be in a crowd, having a conversation and next thing you know it's all about their trip.
Someone asks you, "Hey, how was your trip to Colorado?" You start to say, "Oh, my gosh, we had this great time when we went there," and then that person butts in and talks about their entire trip, and now has monopolized the conversation. That is one example, and that's really at a beginning level. It's really when you go to people who have that narcissistic personality disorder, they really torment and abuse those around them, and that's what tips it over. That's the real meat of it.
Julie Morgan:
That's extreme. That's high self-esteem, but really low self-esteem on a whole other level.
Heather Quick:
Because it is so dysfunctional. It is really pathological because it becomes such a way of life that they are going to this extreme, and it really becomes extremely abusive.
Julie Morgan:
But many women, if they're involved with the narcissist, they may not even know it.
Heather Quick:
They don't, and I have found in my experience, I've had an opportunity to speak with so many women over the years, and there are the patterns that you hear. Sometimes they'll come to us and they'll be like, "I really didn't know that I was married to a narcissist." Many times, they learn this through their own therapy because they're understanding what they're going through and their therapist will be like, "I really think he's probably a narcissist," and then maybe they watch some of our videos, our content, and they do the research themselves. They start to realize, "Oh my goodness, this is me. This is my relationship," because it's not readily apparent. We've talked about this so often, so any woman who feels any shame or embarrassment, please don't because it's not readily apparent. We'll talk about that, how they really just put themselves in your life and take over. It's very manipulative and very deceitful, but you just don't even know. You're really unaware when it's happening.
Julie Morgan:
She may not find out that she's dealing with a narcissist or she's in a relationship with the narcissist until possibly she's in her own therapy herself.
Heather Quick:
Many women have had that experience and those are the things that they've told me. Also, Julie, let's keep in mind, sometimes we don't want to know because that's just scary, because it opens it up. You wonder, "What does this say about me, and then I think I love this person? What does it say about them?" Before you really understand the toxicity of it, because you don't want to see it.
Julie Morgan:
It's something, actually, you mentioned this in our show last week, or possibly even the week before where it's certain things we just don't want to admit to ourselves.
Heather Quick:
It's true. I think that is a normal defense mechanism, normal coping mechanism. Most women, most individuals you're recognizing something's not right. Now, very common when you're in a relationship with a narcissist, you're pretty much thinking you're crazy, and you're really thinking you are the problem that is when you then seek therapy and then begin to understand you're not the problem. You're not the one who's crazy. This is what is in fact going on.
Julie Morgan:
So it sounds like they're very manipulative.
Heather Quick:
Extremely manipulative.
Julie Morgan:
I think about a narcissist and I'm thinking, "They probably have a special way of picking their target, saying, 'That person is really going to fall for whatever it is that I give them.'"
Heather Quick:
Probably so, but they know that the woman responds to their charm. The woman is enamored with the flattery, with the attention showered on them, so I think they can spot that. Obviously, are they responding or do they think I'm too much, and they're like, "No, thank you." So I think it's in that initial spot, because they really will seem like prince charming. They will shower you. You will become the most important person in their life. I think sometimes you've dated somebody and you're like, "Okay, I think they're a little bit extra and I just met this person. How can they be so all in?" But if maybe there's an attraction, some women may think this is the best thing ever, and that's where it starts because it's constant showering of compliments, but it is control as it always goes back to that to some extent, but it's more of like a monopoly of your time and your attention.
Julie Morgan:
No woman is probably immune to this because we all like to be told that we're pretty.
Heather Quick:
Well, yeah and that you're smart and that generally, a lot of things that they will tell you has attracted them to you are the things they're not going to like later. If you're independent or maybe have your own life, well, then they're going to want you to not have that independence, your own friend network, and so what are they going to do? They're going to give you gifts. They're going to take you out to lovely dinners, flowers, trips, jewelry, and it is too much. Yet you're like, "Oh, my God, this is amazing. This is who I've been looking for my whole life.” They call all the time, they want to be with you, and that's the way you feel at the time because they're taking you places to dinner on trips and shopping. Later, it becomes smothering. But if you don't recognize it as smothering in the beginning, then you're probably quite susceptible to their advances.
Julie Morgan:
You know what I also just thought about? It's possible that if they've done this before, and they probably have, they can identify personality traits in the woman that they saw before, and so the same thing will happen again.
Heather Quick:
Oh, it's true. It's clearly a pattern. What I have seen in our experience representing women for so long is that some women repeat this pattern and may marry this type of person again and again, and again, or date this type of person again and again, and until they can really see it and say, "Oh, that, I see where that ends up, so I need to make a change with myself in the beginning so I don't end up in that kind of relationship."
Julie Morgan:
So it's not only a pattern for him, it's also possibly a pattern for her as well.
Heather Quick:
Well, yes, because the types of things that attract you to a narcissist are pretty much like we talked about saying they're smart, they're charming, they're usually successful. They tell you all about it so that you get a sense of, "Oh wow, this guy is somebody I want to be with, he wants to take care of me, he wants to give me all these things, and he's such a great business person or business owner or doctor, lawyer, architect, whatever. He's just wonderful." So yes, that you will see those similarities in narcissistic personalities. Those are what I think if women really were to look at and be like, "Oh yeah, those types of things I'm attracted to." I do think it is something that requires a look at your own self and what you're seeing, but only once you understand it and know because if you don't know, you just don't know.
Julie Morgan:
I can appreciate something that you started off this conversation with. Don't feel bad if this is something that has happened to you or is happening to you.
Heather Quick:
Exactly. It's just those types of things that may be who you would be compatible with or attracted to that's how it starts, and then it turns into where it's toxic and more pathological. Again, you don't see it in the beginning, and usually you're too far in before it really starts to show up to you and then you don't know what to do.
Julie Morgan:
Another thing I thought about, what if you're someone, if you have possibly daddy issues and they see that, it's just something that happens possibly. So you may have certain issues and then they see that and then they really play into that.
Heather Quick:
I think so. Only from what I have learned just through experience, not in studying psychology, yes, because we all have our own our family history, our family story and the things that we've grown up with and seen as acceptable. When I say that, I am speaking to women with children because they are seeing this as acceptable, because you might have as seen it as acceptable, or your husband, your partner, so you learn it from really your family of origin, where you grew up and what you grew up with, and that is important, and just to very much just acknowledge and recognize it to be true. We all grow up like that, and we either are able to say, "Hey, this was a great, healthy thing, a relationship I learned from, or this was not," but not always are we able to really see that, "I witnessed a relationship that wasn't healthy growing up," until we're much older, and we've had some therapy, some work on our personal self and really begin to understand things, and aren't to blame, but just understanding different people; otherwise, you do repeat the pattern.
Julie Morgan:
There goes therapy again. We've talked about that in other shows. We've talked about how therapy is something that can really be good for you.
Heather Quick:
It really is. I do not know if I've ever heard, "Oh, there's a real downside to therapy," there really isn't. It takes work and there's nothing wrong with working on yourself and understanding yourself and understanding your behaviors. Then once you have insight into yourself, you can see maybe some other insights into your partner. That's where I say this is not a shame or blame type situation, because if you didn't know that about yourself, then why would you beat yourself up? You just didn't know that yesterday. Now today, you've learned something about yourself. You've learned something about your relationship. Okay, now you have that knowledge and you can begin to work on that.
Julie Morgan:
Don't beat yourself up. Heather, I see this being two shows. I'm just letting you know, I can see it. I can see it now.
Heather Quick:
It's because it's just so overwhelming for the person and the relationship moves so quickly, there's so many aspects of it. I do think it deserves the time and the conversation that we can give it, because I do think women who have been in a relationship or are in a relationship with a narcissist and really suffering through it that there's a lot of information here that can help them.
Julie Morgan:
Truly is. How do you identify a narcissist? This just has be a skill and someone needs to get paid for this.
Heather Quick:
Well, yes. It's true that it is a skill so yes, of course, mental health professionals, they are trained in that. Now, what I've learned is just through experientially, one, what I learned growing up, frankly, my mother was married to several narcissists. Now, and did I know that the time? No, but then as the divorce practice continued, and then I think we've talked about it previously, I kept seeing the patterns that women were in that were similar. I was seeing it again and again, and then I really started to learn and understand that they were married to narcissist in that they, all different women, but there's a similar story. Then I thought, "Oh, wow. I remember that guy my mom was married to, and it was the exact same thing."
In conversations with women who are coming to see us for divorce or some protection and guidance, I can hear early on in a conversation if he is a narcissist. I can tell them essentially what their husband is doing behavior-wise, because it's going to be the same if they are a narcissist. You're just going to see those same patterns of what they do, so it is something I've been dealing with and I had exposure to, and really learned and studied it for years. If you haven't had experience or an understanding, no, you're not going to know that right away.
Julie Morgan:
A narcissist, and you mentioned this before, but of course this is on a totally different level, they're obsessed with their appearance and what others think of them.
Heather Quick:
Yes, and that's very important. Because they have this outer appearance that they want in the ideal of how they're going to be seen and portrayed to everybody and where this and how this goes and becomes, it's more than, "Hey, we want to look nice and want the family to dress up at special occasions." This is, they really want people to be jealous of them and be like, "Oh, I want to be like this person," and so where that goes is, do they expect their spouse, their children, everything to be perfect and look the part? If they don't like the way you look or tell you that, they're going to demean what you're wearing, or they don't like that, or the kids aren't looking appropriate and the house is dirty or do this or do that, we'll dive into this more later, it's never their fault. They are obsessed with their appearance and what everybody thinks of them, but that's why they need you there as their partner, because they're going to blame you when it's not. You look startled.
Julie Morgan:
Of course, I do, Heather, of course I do and everyone's listening. They said, "Julie is always startled." I am, because you want people to be jealous of you, that's just another level, ugh.
Heather Quick:
Well, it is, and that's what we're talking about. That pathological part that you really want people to envy you and for something that may not even be true. You're just putting up this facade of this perfect family, the magazine cover, the Facebook posts and all of that, or whatever social media, it's all social media, it is the facade.
Julie Morgan:
For something that may not even be true.
Heather Quick:
It's not, because you can imagine this person, that's not perfect. Well, no, one's perfect, and it’s a home life that everybody's scared of you, and then you're behind closed doors and then the family, you treat your family pretty terribly, but on the outside you are Mr. Charming. You're everybody's favorite person. You always get invited to the party that everybody thinks you guys are the greatest, "Oh, you have the best husband ever." "Oh, we just love your dad. He's so great." So that's what these women and their children here from neighbors, family, and everybody else.
Julie Morgan:
He wants them to hear that over and over and over again.
Heather Quick:
Exactly, because now, they think, "Oh, maybe I'm crazy. Why does everybody else think he's so great? Seems like he's not very nice to me. He used to be, or I thought he was," but there's that questioning, "Why does everybody think he's the greatest?" Because they're obsessed with their appearance, they're obsessed with what they put out there, so when women reach out to us, sometimes they are really worried. They're like, "What is everybody going to think? They think he is the perfect husband. They're going to think I'm so stupid and crazy. Why would I leave? What's wrong with me? He's providing a nice life. He wants everything to be neat and orderly. He buys me pretty things. He takes care of us," and I do the quote marks because that's what he's told you.
Maybe he's taking care of you financially, but emotionally and psychologically, that's not really being taken care of, it creates probably most likely within most women, just this questioning, "Gosh, what have I done wrong?" Because remember, he is not going to be the one who's at fault. It's always you, which lowers your self-esteem again and again and again, because you're constantly hearing now, you're not good enough, so go do better. But then when you do get better, he praises you out there in public, so it's dysfunctional. There probably is a word for it, that one does not even cover it.
Julie Morgan:
When we're about appearance, okay, not only just you, but the children, the house, the car, everything has to be on point, and if it's not, it seems like this could, unfortunately, and we've talked about abuse before, it could lead to abuse. That's just what I'm thinking.
Heather Quick:
Oh, absolutely, because at some point they may or may not snap and it's going to be abusive one way or another verbally, emotionally, and then maybe physically, because you got to continue to play the part, put on the show. Part of what you'll see with the narcissist is then a lot of it may be very unreal expectations of how things should be, but then there's going to be the anger and the blaming of you if it's not what they said they wanted it to be, or expected everybody to be dressed or clean or whatever, because then now what are other people going to think? They're not going to think I'm the greatest in the world, which is what he wants everyone to think.
Julie Morgan:
The reason that some of this stuff may not have happened, it could be his fault.
Heather Quick:
Oh, it probably is his fault, but that part of the conversation never happens from most narcissists. Even if they're the ones that leave and they're the ones that do that, it's your fault. I'm telling you, they never, ever take responsibility.
Julie Morgan:
Okay. You know what that sounds like to me though, it also sounds like that's a child? Children sometimes don't want to take responsibility for their actions. As an adult, you learn, that's what you have to do, but that just sounds like a child to me.
Heather Quick:
Very much so, but they live in their own world of reality and in their ego. They haven't accepted that they have to have responsibility for their actions because they're above that, and everyone else is usually to blame.
Julie Morgan:
Yeah. That's childish. That just doesn't make sense. I'm sorry. Again, Julie is randomly saying things, please don't pay attention to her.
Heather Quick:
No, but you're right. The thing is, when we talk about it in this way, it makes sense, you’ve probably met several of them through your life, particularly in the workplace and dinner parties. Now you'll be like, "Oh, I bet that person is one." Anytime I read something and get a little bit of knowledge, boy, I'm ready to go diagnose everybody. I say that in jest because and only to make light of it, but it's okay, because sometimes we do think that, I do anyway. I may be the only crazy one, but I've been doing this for so long now that I can see things, but I think anybody listening to this will be like, "Oh yeah, I remember that person. I wonder if they're a narcissist?"
Like I said, there's a lot of traits, a lot of things you see, because it builds on each other. So we all know the obnoxious person who talks all the time. Okay. Are they a narcissist? I don't know, but it's one of the traits. It's not just one thing it's really, you add them all up and then you see it again and again and you're like, "they very well may be.” Really the person who knows best is the one who's in the relationship with them, because then what they share with you it's going to be more clear because of what we've started to talk about, that prince charming that turns into the abusive, self-obsessed partner.
Julie Morgan:
Okay. Sometimes, again, I say random things, but I wonder if a narcissist, if they've ever listened to a song about narcissism or what have you, if they've ever done that and said, "Oh my goodness, that's me."
Heather Quick:
I really don't think so because that would be a level of self-awareness that they don't have, and they're going to, more often than not, in my experience, avoid a therapy session or anything like that. They may tell you they'll go to therapy and they may start, and this is also another good example. They'll never finish because then that therapist is not good or they don't like that therapist, and so therefore, probably when about session two or three, the therapists like, "Hmm, I think I got your number." Then they're out, and they most likely they're going to start to say, "Nope, changing therapists.” Because the therapist is starting to understand and get to know the dynamic, and they may say something that that narcissist does not want to hear.
Julie Morgan:
I don't see them telling the therapist, "Oh yes, I've seen five therapists already. I don't see them telling them that, but if they did tell the therapist, "Yes. I've been to therapy a number of times and I've seen so many different therapists," the therapist can almost right then and there say, "Huh, well, something isn't right."
Heather Quick:
Exactly. Again, they don't want anybody to get to know them too much. They're very likely not going to open up, not be honest in that setting, unless they truly are acknowledging what's going on with them and want help. I don't think I've ever experienced that in representing women that that's what they want. Usually, it's very manipulative if they say they're going to do that, so I don't know that there are many recovering narcissists.
Julie Morgan:
Yeah, because the first step in any addiction or issue that you may have is to admit that you have a problem.
Heather Quick:
Correct, and with a narcissist, everyone else has a problem. They're very critical of everyone else. Again, it's more their ego. They are the most important person in the room, and it's just very unlikely that they're going to see anything wrong with that to want to change.
Julie Morgan:
That's just crazy. A lot of people don't like that word, but that just doesn't make sense. It just doesn't make sense. Oh, boy. They use everyone in their lives to feed their egos, as if no one has anything else to do.
Heather Quick:
Right, but they're so good at that, and they do put themselves around people to feed their egos. That's one of those things that they'll notice and pick up on, the type of people in their workplace or even in their social group, like that sycophant. You've heard of that person who is really just all over someone just to gain an advantage, or they agree with everything from their boss, and they're just a little bit obnoxious. Well, they're going to love those kind of people, and they're going to be able to spot that and make them think, because again, this is all a facade. They're going to make these folks think, "Oh, I can give them something," when really they're feeding their own ego.
They're getting that attention, and they're going to surround themselves with those kinds of people who are going to tell them how great they are in business and work. That may or may not be true. There are a lot of great people who do great things who don't need someone telling them that all the time. They have surrounded themselves with individuals who feed their ego. They won't hang out with other people who won't, rarely, they really won't.
Julie Morgan:
Because that's something that they need to continue to hear all the time.
Heather Quick:
Exactly, they need that feeding of their ego. They would, I bet, probably be a little ridiculously competitive in a social setting, again, where you think of it as if you're playing a sport and then carrying it over. I know there's several movies where the guy goes a little crazy and takes it to another level because that's what they need to do. I play tennis, so tennis could be an example and they're just obnoxious with winning in everything. I think, again, we just talk about in the next level, because I know a lot of competitive people. I'm competitive. It's just more of they're going to play the child so that they can just crush them or something silly, but again, it's that constant need to feed that ego
Julie Morgan:
You know what? Okay, so this goes back to the beginning of the show, the first segment of the show. I mentioned, this seems like high self-esteem on another level, and you said that actually it's more low self-esteem. That right there lends to the fact that it really is low self-esteem, because it's something that they constantly need to hear. Someone with high self-esteem, they don't need that.
Heather Quick:
Correct. If you have a high self-esteem, you don't put other people down, you're more likely to lift other people up. It's a bully, we all know what a bully is. These people are bullies and most bullies have a low self-esteem. If somebody stands up to them, that's not who they want to be around. They want to be around people who they can boss around, put down so that they then feel better. That's just pathological that your need to feel good is only really achieved when others are feeling bad.
Julie Morgan:
I just finished your sentence there, Heather.
Heather Quick:
I know. I know, we're on the same page, girl. You're going to be, "I'm ready to go law school, Heather, I'm ready to take down these narcissists." I'll make a spot for you.
Julie Morgan:
Oh, yeah. That'll cool. I can be on the website wearing my black suit.
Heather Quick:
High heels, black suit, Gotcha.
Julie Morgan:
Oh, man. Okay. Now this is a point. They talk to other people, but they don't really listen to what the other person is saying.
Heather Quick:
That is correct. It's, again, that example of they may be in a group and they're going to always bring it back to themselves. Any time someone has something to say, they're always bringing it back to themselves because they're seeking attention. They're wanting everyone to hear them, and hear what they have to say. They really don't have the patience or attention to listen to somebody else. They're not going to have that kind of attention span to listen to another person's conversation. Now, there may be situations, obviously, it could be in business and workplace areas where somebody else must be in charge or is in charge.
I think, and this just came to me now, but it makes sense. That is why sometimes they are so very successful, because they can't stand working for somebody else. They're willing to do what it takes to be the boss, to be the best, because not only do they have to hear it, but I think that they need to be in charge, to be the most noticed in the room.
Julie Morgan:
I didn't even think about that. Another thing you mentioned is the fact that they put other people down, like these little digs at people, you know about possibly their personal appearance, what you watch on television, anything.
Heather Quick:
When there's that constant criticism and it is, it's not constructive criticism, it's criticism. Then if you're offended or you get upset, they're going to tell you're too sensitive. "Oh, you can't take a joke. Come on," but it's again, not one thing. It's everything and anything that you do.
Julie Morgan:
You can't take a joke, it's just a bit much. People can take a joke. You're not too sensitive, it's just that they're just going overboard.
Heather Quick:
Because it's not a joke and it's not funny, but they're making you think that, because you wonder, "Well, am I being too sensitive? Am I taking everything to literally?" But I think it's fair to say, no, it's not a joke, but again, it's their version, their view. You become so immersed in that world that you begin to question your own sense of, "How am I reacting? Am I overreacting? When did I get so sensitive?"
Julie Morgan:
You just look at yourself and you say something's wrong with you. That's where I keep going back to. It's making you feel like there's something wrong with you, and that's just not right.
Heather Quick:
There's not and that turns into your self-esteem going down and I think a lot of that, and I would say everybody has periods of where you're feeling lower self-esteem, we all do. That's probably maybe when they worm their way in. They built you up and gave you all that attention, and that's where I say it's more breaking your spirit. It's like they built you up and made you just fall for all of this attention, all of this adoration and gifts and just pouring it on, and now they take it away and you want it back, because that feels good. You can see where now they understand how, "If I'm mean she's going to be so sad, so I will then dole out some attention. Okay. You're better now. Let's go out. Okay. You've changed your dress, now we can go out to dinner."
Julie Morgan:
That sounded almost like a backhanded compliment.
Heather Quick:
Well, that's a good description for it. I would absolutely agree.
Julie Morgan:
That's what I think of. That's just, oh boy, they really don't have any empathy. That's what it sounds like to me, they lack empathy.
Heather Quick:
Yes. that is exactly true. It's one of the biggest problems of a narcissist. They have no regard for anyone else's feelings, thoughts, or opinions. It's a lack of empathy because they can't even see it from someone else's point of view or say, "Okay. I could see why that would be hurtful," because again, that means thinking about someone other than themselves.
Julie Morgan:
Yeah, that's true. I didn't really think about that. All of this, they're extremely controlling because really that's what it all boils down to, the control that they want to have over you. They're extremely controlling.
Heather Quick:
Yes, it permeates your entire life, because of their need to control. Which then builds up their ego and gives them, in their mind, power, and that's what they're want. They want power and control over everything in their life and their relationships so that you are dependent on them. In a relationship, I think healthy relationships, you depend on each other and you do rely on each other, and that would be very normal. This is going to the extreme. This isn't the normal.
This is wanting to not only require that dependence, but it's control over everything in the family. There are tons of marriages where the husband works and the wife is at home, and maybe not the whole marriage, but a portion of it. But when we go to this extreme, it's more like, "No, and I earn the money. This is my money you want; you're going to have to ask," or if you don't do or act in a way that they want, then they'll take something away. That's where it turns to, "Nope, I'm taking the keys. You're not driving that car today. It's a filthy mess. Look at what you did to that car." They could take it away. It's that kind of extreme.
Julie Morgan:
Oh, Heather.
Heather Quick:
I know. I know. I know. I've gotten you all perplexed again, that this could really happen.
Julie Morgan:
You do, you do, because, okay, so you mentioned the financial piece. This actually goes back to our show about financial abuse. If you want to listen to the show, you can go to our website, womenwinningdivorce.com, but so they're big on financial control.
Heather Quick:
Very much so, because that is a readily available way to control somebody that you are going to probably see immediate results. "Hey, I need the money to put gas in the car to go buy groceries, to do things," so if they can take that away or limit that, like that show, which if anything in this show is touching a nerve or seems familiar, I agree, Julie, go back and listen to that one. These are the types of abuse that you may not see. It may not resonate until you're hearing this and you're going, "Oh, my goodness. That seems like something he does." Like, "Why do I get a text?" He's like, "Why did you spend this money here?" Or limiting the amount on the cards, because again, it's power and control, power and control over you and requiring you to rely on him because that makes him more important.
Julie Morgan:
Okay. Heather, you know what? We have a lot more to talk about on this topic.
Heather Quick:
Yes, we do.
Julie Morgan:
If you missed any of this show, again, you could go to the website, womenwinningdivorce.com to listen to the show. Download the other episodes, and then come back next week, because we're talking about narcissism again. Anything else you want to add?
Heather Quick:
Well, only if we're going on for a few more hours. So I think what we will do is just save the rest for later, because there's a lot there. All I would say is, if any of this has resonated with anyone, please reach out if you are in need of help or some guidance, because that is what we're here for.
Julie Morgan:
Absolutely. Heather, it was great to see you again.
Heather Quick:
Absolutely. Julie, thank you so much. I look forward to continuing our conversation.
Julie Morgan:
Me too. Thank you for listening to Women Winning Divorce. We hope you found information to help you navigate your divorce. If you like our show, please take the time to subscribe and provide a five-star review. If you need more information, please visit our website at womenwinningdivorce.com, where you will find previous episodes and other helpful content. Join us next week as we continue our journey of Women Winning Divorce.