In this episode of Women Winning Divorce, Heather Quick takes a look at the impact of substance abuse and addiction on divorce, and strategies women can use to protect themselves and their families from the entailed risks.
"Women Winning Divorce" is a radio show and podcast hosted by Heather Quick, CEO and Owner of Florida Women's Law Group. Each week we focus on different aspects of family law to help guide women through the difficult and emotional legal challenges they are facing. Heather brings over 20 years of law experience that advocates and empowers women to achieve happier and healthier lives. Join Heather each week as she discusses family law issues including divorce, custody, alimony, paternity, narcissism, mediation and more.
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Women Winning Divorce
Episode 14
Substance Abuse
Julie Morgan:
Welcome to Women Winning Divorce with your host, Heather Quick. Heather brings over 20 years of law experience that advocates and empowers women to achieve happier and healthier lives. Each week, we provide knowledge and guidance on different aspects of family law. To help lead women through the difficult and emotional legal challenges that they are facing.
Listen in as she discusses issues including divorce, custody, alimony, paternity, narcissism, mediation, and other family law issues, to provide insight on the journey of women winning divorce. Welcome to the show. I'm Julie Morgan, and I'm joined by your host Heather Quick. Hi Heather, it's good to see you again.
Heather Quick:
Good to see you too, Julie.
Julie Morgan:
Heather, today's topic, substance abuse. Tell me, is this something that you see often in your practice?
Heather Quick:
Yes, we do and it's hard to say, is it just people talk about it more now in really the almost 20 years I've been doing family law? Or is it just something now that is just more of an issue? That I can't answer, but yes, we see it a lot and see a lot more cases of women with addiction problems as well than maybe I did 10, 15 years ago.
Julie Morgan:
Have they possibly shared what pushed them to that point? Because I was thinking that this was going to mostly be about substance abuse of the husband, the spouse.
Heather Quick:
Yeah. I mean, we see it both sides, so it's one of those things that, obviously like a lot of other things, it's not specific to socioeconomic or race, even gender. The financial abuse, that's more something we're going to see. That is where that husband is dominating that aspect, from my perspective and from our practice, that's what we see. But we certainly have absolutely helped women who are recovering or in the middle of it and trying to help them through that, and the divorce is kind of the consequence. I don't know, it's definitely something we've seen on both sides.
Julie Morgan:
Do you try to help them with that if they want to accept help?
Heather Quick:
Oh, absolutely and my perspective and our point of view at our firm is, if you one, have a problem or had a problem, if you are in a position to acknowledge it and get help, then we can help you through this process. The judges are going to look at that as, "Hey, I'm acknowledging this and I'm working through it." If you don't want help or want to work through it, I don't know that we're going to get the results for you that you would want.
So, that might not be a good fit because if it's an issue, I mean, if it's not an issue in the divorce and then we don't know about it, it's not really something that's going to be addressed. But obviously if your spouse brought it up and you're worried about it, well, we will help you through that if you want to. Or if you don't want to help, but you just still need an attorney, we'll figure that out, if we can align and still achieve the goals that you want and maintain our integrity with how we would help you.
Julie Morgan:
But really that's the first step, you have to want to.
Heather Quick:
Oh, indeed. Oh yeah and I know we've touched on it, I think really just in the last show, just talking about denial, but denial is huge, huge in substance abuse. Addicts are manipulative, manipulative individuals and so, again, if they don't want help and we could be on the receiving end of that as their attorney through the process. I'm certainly not going to say that hasn't happened. I just have had a lot of experience with it in this realm, so we do pick up on it. We do see what we're going on, but if somebody is in a relationship with an addict and we're going through the divorce with them, there's so many ways we can help them and prepare them for what they're seeing.
Julie Morgan:
Now, you mentioned this, but I think it's worth mentioning again. This can happen to everyone. This is not just a certain type of person that may look a certain way or have a certain amount of money.
Heather Quick:
Absolutely. I mean, everybody. Everybody, anybody, no one's immune. We've talked about so much stuff, so I'm not going to say it's the most, but there's the psychology, which is involved when you have substance abuse, it's again, another complex thing as to why somebody stays with the person that they know is an alcoholic with destructive behavior or addicted to drugs. They're turning into this different person, but yet it's complicated in a marriage.
I know I'm not an expert or I certainly wouldn't speak on it, but we've all probably had that codependency. There's a lot to that because it interrelates. You're in this relationship with this person, you may not be the one who's abusing substances, but you're so intertwined with what they do and when and it's complicated to say the least.
Julie Morgan:
Okay, you just took that to a different level and I wasn't even thinking about that. Yeah. Okay, but some people are so good at hiding it. They're just really, really good at hiding it and you just would've never thought.
Heather Quick:
Agreed and like in our case as the divorce attorneys, some things that we may hear is that the spouse says, "I didn't know. I really didn't know it was at this level until now and we got to this point," and then learning it's been going on for years.
I mean, a lot of times I hear from women, "Oh yeah. I mean, it's been going on for years. I thought he'd gotten better and maybe I thought he was sober for many years." So, then they notice immediately if they're not sober because they know this person, they knew them when they were under the influence. Then, maybe they had the opportunity where there was a sober period of time and then it changes and they know really quickly.
Julie Morgan:
That's where it comes in when you talk about the fact that they can become an entirely different person.
Heather Quick:
Completely and this is a little deeper, but this may make sense for folks, and they are a completely different person as that addict. You still remember the person they were or the sober person, the person that you fell in love with and there's just such a hope because you know if they just stopped this, which way easier said than done, but that's what they're thinking. They're like, they have this ability, maybe they're not like this 100% of the time at the moment. It's just every few days or once a week, I don't know, but that sober person shows up and they're like, "Oh, that's who they could be." But yes, they do.
Sometimes they're like the happiest and most fun person to be around. Everybody loves them or sometimes they can be very dark and angry, but either way, it's when it goes to the excess that anyone listening who understands it, they know that. They know. They're like, "I know he was maybe fun at the party, but come home, drinks even more, passes out in the middle of the floor. Or ends up staying somewhere else." There's just all those things that they know that is that different person that they've become. There's a lot of responsibility on the spouse who's not the addict in those cases.
Julie Morgan:
You know what, let's back up just a little bit. Something I thought about is, substance abuse, it's anything extra. So, it can be alcohol, it can be pills, it can be anything extra that the person is taking.
Heather Quick:
Oh, absolutely because yeah, it's prescription pills, but again, that's why the word abuse is in there because okay, alcohol is legal, but then there's a level. There's a line as to when it's abuse. Your one glass of wine every night, that's not abuse, it's something else or it's those excesses. When you're in it, you know and you know that other person goes to those extremes. It's even the prescription pills that can then so dangerously carry over to...you're legally prescribed, but you're not taking them as directed.
Julie Morgan:
So, if you're looking for signs of this, it can be anything that's in excess. Yeah.
Heather Quick:
Really is.
Julie Morgan:
How does this correlate with domestic violence? I know there has to be a correlation.
Heather Quick:
Well, you know I always come prepared with a little bit of statistics, a little number here and there. But 75% of domestic violence abuse is related to the use of alcohol and or drugs, and that is not to say that it is the drugs and alcohol that cause that, because I don't believe that. I believe it just can create a more dangerous situation. It can cause things to escalate in a way that maybe they wouldn't escalate without it, but it doesn't mean every single time that there's abuse, someone's under the influence, but often, and it's highly correlated. Certainly, most of the police reports at any time that the cops get called out to that, there's going to be an indication of alcohol or drugs.
Julie Morgan:
So, you're saying that this is just something to bring out something that's already there.
Heather Quick:
I believe so. I think it changes the way we behave because we're not willing to follow or accept our normal boundaries. I mean, it does change your brain chemistry and over time you're more reckless. You're more willing to take risks, that's why so many people drunk drive. You're more willing to take the risk. You're not appreciating that as much because it's affecting the way you think.
So, somebody who's never been abusive, just because they're an addict doesn't mean they're going to be. It just is in those situations maybe that is what really creates an increase in the violence. There's something always underlying, I do believe that. You've heard, everybody's heard that term, mean drunk. Well, they're probably a mean person in there, now not afraid to do those things.
Julie Morgan:
You know something I thought about, we talked about the fact that the person, they can become an entirely different person, but what if you met them and they were an addict. So, that is just who you know them as and you don't even know it. You know what I mean?
Heather Quick:
I think that happens a lot. I'm certain it does. Certainly, I have my experiences with this as it relates to family law, but I watch movies just like you do and documentaries. Particularly say, if it's pills that are stimulants or drugs that are stimulants, a lot of people function and that's how they do that. That's something you could probably hide a lot easier because alcohol's a depressant and there's the smell and all that. It's not going to put you at this exciting level of performance that certainly some drugs do.
So, I think very easily, and I say that about alcohol, but I certainly have heard stories of functioning alcoholics, or somebody just has a baseline and maybe you don't. You've met them and you're not aware until maybe you get married or live with the person and understand that level of alcohol that they're consuming because to you, that's the person you met, so you're not seeing the change, just to your point.
Julie Morgan:
Yeah and then if they realize possibly in another area of their life that this is a problem, and they try to get help and then they become an entirely different person, because now they're off the drugs or alcohol, then you notice it.
Heather Quick:
That could be somebody that you're like, "Wait, this isn't who I wanted to be in a relationship with." For sure. It's I mean, so many ways that addiction affects marriages and relationships and I think that's a very valid point, Julie. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, like saying, "Now that you're sober, I don't know that I like you," that is okay.
Now, they may think you feel really bad and you may be like, "Oh my God, if I leave them, then they're going to go drinking again." Well, no, if they're going to do it, they're going to do it. You don't have that much control over another person, but I think that's a very interesting point.
Julie Morgan:
I didn't think about it until just now. So boy, I tell you.
Heather Quick:
You're so smart. You're so smart. You just think of all these things we got to talk about.
Julie Morgan:
You're listening to Women Winning Divorce with Heather Quick, owner and attorney for Florida Women's Law Group. We're taking a quick break here and when we return, we're going to talk about the ways addiction affects a marriage. Stay with us.
Julie Morgan:
Welcome back to Women Winning Divorce with Heather Quick, owner and attorney for Florida Women's Law Group. Heather, let's talk about the ways addiction affects a marriage. How can this disrupt the family dynamic? Because it can be disruptive. It has to be.
Heather Quick:
Oh indeed, indeed. Of course, it is and like other forms of abuse, there're many cases this does, this happens gradually over time. It is something that, a word of the past couple weeks, denial, where there is denial. So, you might kind of notice it, but you're letting it go because you don't really want to address it, is this like a full blown problem? It's easy to make excuses for your spouse's behavior and there's always so many reasons. So, that's where that codependency, you're covering for them with the kids, maybe with other family and other events.
Julie Morgan:
Then, it just comes to a point where you can't ignore it.
Heather Quick:
Right, because it takes over. There becomes a point where they're so drunk and they pass out at the company party and you're like, "All right, now we have to do something. Now I can't sit by and I either have to leave or they have to get treatment. Or they've passed out and they're lying on the floor in the bathroom and I just woke up." There's usually an aha moment and it may take something even more drastic than that. Something finally as where you're like, "Okay, we have to do something. I can't ignore this anymore."
Julie Morgan:
That's at the point where now everybody knows. So, you feel even more of a sense that yeah, I got to do this. I got to do something about this or he has to do something about this or what have you, because at that point then everybody knows.
Heather Quick:
Correct and that can be a powerful motivator because for many things, sometimes you can keep it hidden. But I think there comes the point where it's too hard to ignore or you don't want to ignore it anymore. You're just like, "I just don't want to live like this and I can't."
Julie Morgan:
You don't want to ignore it anymore. Something to say about that and addicts, they lie a lot.
Heather Quick:
They lie and they lie and they lie. They're extremely manipulative because that's how they have maneuvered to hide their addiction and make excuses for it. Really to justify and avoid the fact they have a problem through manipulation. It can be very hard for the spouse to see that. It's hard to acknowledge that because in my experience, not across the board, in my experience, when this first comes to light, that spouse, the wife, she's like, "I still love him." So it's not where we talk about some other things that they feel like they've been doing something to you. They're doing this to themselves and you still love them, but you can't live like that.
Now we have that inner conflict, which is difficult. Probably that has something to do with the codependency, but that's a big part of it. No, they haven't done anything to me, but they're killing themselves, they're destroying this, and it does eventually get to the point where it's affecting the family so much. Maybe you weren't leaving for yourself, but you know the kids can't be in this environment anymore and so, you must leave or kick them out. Do something. You have to end the relationship. You can't live with this person anymore.
Julie Morgan:
Because even if there's no domestic violence as far as their abuse is concerned, because it's affecting everything around you. They lie about where they go, who they've been with, that type of thing so it affects everything. So even if there's no domestic violence involved, you still feel like you need to leave at some point possibly.
Heather Quick:
At some point, because it affects every part of your life. What we just talked about, they're manipulative and they lie and you can't trust them. That creates a lot of stress, but it feeds something in you that you're like, "Oh, are they home? What are they doing today? Where are they?" I mean, it's sick all the way around. It really is and it's very difficult for people to pull themselves out of this cycle and what was going on with that to say, "I have got to leave." Because you can make excuses as to why you can't leave with everything else and this is no different.
Julie Morgan:
So, a substance abuser, what are some of their thoughts? What are some of their feelings about what they're doing?
Heather Quick:
They're very self-absorbed because it's all about them. I think it gets to a point where their thoughts are consumed by, "When do I have the next drink? When do I do drugs again?" It's all consuming. When it gets to the level we're talking about, it's all consuming for that person. There is also that cognitive dissonance and the internal struggle with, how am I going to get all this? But then if they're still keeping things together, like they're working, they're trying to manage, basically two different people. The person that they pretend to be for the family, spouse, and then this addiction that is on the other side, so it's exhausting.
Then, as far as their behavior, they aren't very rational and they're not thinking straight and every decision they're making, the drugs and alcohol are what is behind it. So, if they're going to work, it's just to make sure they have the money for that. If they're coming home, it's just because that's where I can drink and then not drive and nobody will bother me. Or whatever they're doing, that's the primary thing. I mean, that's who they're married to, those substances. It's not you. They're not thinking about your kids. They're not thinking about anything else, but the substances, the drugs and alcohol.
Julie Morgan:
So, they'll empty bank accounts. They'll sell stuff in the home and that has a real effect on life.
Heather Quick:
Yes. I mean, think about what can happen to you. If they kill somebody, get an accident, then financially that’s both your worlds because those assets, you may have some liability, you're going to certainly be affected by it. But yes, they will steal right out from under you. They steal from your kids because they're operating just dishonestly. They have to feed this problem that they have, so, honesty does not come into the picture at all.
Julie Morgan:
I think about this and empty bank accounts, that's just one thing. That right there alone can lead to so much more. You don't have money for food. You don't have money to pay the mortgage. You don't have this. You don't have that because like we said in the show last week, money makes the world go round and so, this one thing leads to so many other things.
Heather Quick:
It does and eventually there is going to be that event that is going to cause you to say, "I'm done. I'm over this." Like we talked, it could be losing control at a party. The thing that says to you, "Hey, I'm not ignoring this anymore," and that could be he emptied the bank account. We had a savings account. He went in and took the kids' college money. Whatever it is that then now that pain is worse than potentially the pain of actually doing something, that fear that keeps you from doing something and now that has really put you over the edge.
Of course, that's going to affect you as the sober person trying to keep it all together, your work, anything you're doing. How do you not think about that? Or wonder where he is or what's he doing and what bomb is going to drop today? Because they're so unpredictable.
Julie Morgan:
The domino effect is real, very real. How does this affect the children? You mentioned children earlier. This has to really just really be a dark spot in their life.
Heather Quick:
Well, indeed and I'm going to talk about two different things because this in my experience, I've had this happen and people don't think about it. Okay. So here, as the spouse I'm keeping things together, keeping our family together, but he's got a real problem and he's a drunk. Well, now I have to go to work, he's here with the kids. There have been instances where the Department of Children and Families can come in and guess what, accuse you of failing to protect your children, because you have not protected them from this person.
You've left him in charge of your kids, and he is a drunk, and now your kids have to go be with grandma because you're picking your husband over the kids because he's a danger. Now, is that extreme, Julie? Yes, it is, but I have witnessed it and I know it happens. It's good to hear sometimes an extreme just to say, "Oh wow, that could really happen." The children could be in a situation where yeah, your spouse is driving, they're under the influence. Guess what? He's still going to jail and your kids are riding in a cop car and not for a fun birthday party with the lights. That's going to be with them for a long time and if you're fortunate enough that they're safe and nothing horrible happened, which we know that happens all the time.
You know that it's always the innocent victims that end up really dying unfortunately with drunk drivers, more often than not and that's on the alcohol side. Once you get into drugs, I mean paraphernalia around, who are they dealing with? Your children are going to see that or be exposed to it and that will last with them. I don't have statistics on that, but I do know that children of parents who are addicts, there's going to be a higher percentage that they will have that problem too.
Julie Morgan:
So, you think about all of that, that you just mentioned and if something happens and they, for lack of a better term catch a case and so, then you have to deal with the legal bills. And so, they lost their job. You were working, you had to leave the kids with them. Now you don't have the kids, you have these legal bills that you have to deal with. You may not have a safe place to stay because they didn't pay the mortgage or what have you, and it really is a domino effect.
Heather Quick:
It is and it sounds so dire, but it's just one after another. I mean, it can very much happen without a doubt and you can at least extricate yourself. If your husband, your spouse, significant other, if they're going down this path, they're going. You don't have control over anyone but your own actions and you can choose to be along for that ride or not. But if they don't want to get help and they don't get help, just these types of things that we're talking about will continue to happen.
Julie Morgan:
Something else you mentioned, as far as the kids are concerned, you've seen... Again, I'm asking you this question and I know you can't answer certain things, but there are cases where she may choose the husband as opposed to the kids.
Heather Quick:
I'm sure it's possible. I haven’t had a specific experience with that, but certainly. Yeah and I mean, you never know, because it's so dysfunctional. Substance abuse doesn't affect one person. There's the one abuser, but it affects the entire family and nobody makes great decisions because of the many things that are going on in that house that just creates such chaos all the time.
Julie Morgan:
So many layers to this. You're listening to Women Winning Divorce with Heather Quick, owner and attorney for Florida Women's Law Group. We're taking a quick break here and when we return, we're going to talk about divorcing a substance abuser. Stay with us.
Julie Morgan:
Welcome back to Women Winning Divorce with Heather Quick, owner and attorney for Florida Women's Law Group. Heather, is it complicated as far as divorce is concerned to divorce someone who is a substance abuser?
Heather Quick:
It adds another layer and a different layer, because a little of what I've talked about before is that, our client trying to divorce their husband, who's an alcoholic, and I'm just going to use that because then that's just easier. Again, they're saying, "He's not doing anything to me, but I don't want to be with this person."
I think sometimes they emotionally still go back and forth a little bit depending on how long they've been in that dysfunctional relationship. More if they're really still very angry about it, rightfully so, they want to tell the court all the reasons as far as their alcohol and drug problem. But Florida's a no-fault state so there may not be an opportunity for that to be addressed and that can be stressful sometimes.
Or they just are upset that it doesn't come into play, because they're like, "Well, I would stay married if he'd be sober so that's his fault, he should pay more." It doesn't quite work like that.
Julie Morgan:
Oh, okay. So, wait a minute. Okay. So, if someone is a substance abuser, do you have to prove that?
Heather Quick:
No. Now, there may be instances where it would be relevant, so we would have that conversation, but no, because the character of your spouse when you're divorcing is really irrelevant. You don't have to prove it in order to get a divorce.
Now, if the fact that they are an addict of some sort may affect things in the divorce, like they've spent a lot of money or incurred debt, or of course the children, then there are reasons to go into it.
Julie Morgan:
Okay. So, it's not something that the judge is saying, "Okay, substance abuser, that's bad. Then, this really has a strong bearing on the divorce." It's other things, those extra things like dealing with the kids that this really has to do with.
Heather Quick:
Absolutely.
Julie Morgan:
Got it. Okay. Alrighty. What about marital property and assets? I mean, does it matter?
Heather Quick:
Again, that one, it depends. I mean, we, in Florida, equitable distribution is how property and assets are handled and especially with marital property. If it's determined to be marital, even though he spent all his money, you've been saving yours, we've talked about that, it's still half his as the beginning premise. But if, and this is a big if, can we prove that they have spent all this money obviously on things that were not for the benefit of the marriage for a habit, there may be an opportunity.
I don't want to give anybody hope like, "Oh, okay. This is what we're going to go do." All this money he's paid his drug dealer or all the money he spent in the liquor store we're going to recoup, not necessarily, but I think it's definitely relevant. So you absolutely tell your attorney and then we look at that. For example, however long you've been in the marriage and this has been going on for five years, the court's going to be like, "You stuck around." But if we could show maybe just a year closer in time to you taking action, may be an opportunity, but that's certainly not a guarantee or a slam dunk, but the law, we can look at different ways depending. Particularly if there's been illegal things going on, that would give us more of a case for that.
Julie Morgan:
You know what, I'm thinking about this, I'm pretty sure there's someone out there who possibly feels like, "Yeah, this is a slam dunk for this because they use drugs, so I have to go."
Heather Quick:
Yeah. "And wait till I tell the judge all things they did," and that's not the opportunity. That's for counseling and maybe at other mediation, but it's just not always going to come into play.
Julie Morgan:
All right. Okay. I wasn't expecting you to say that.
Heather Quick:
I know you weren't, I know. That's why we're doing this show, right?
Julie Morgan:
Yeah, because again, I know I'm not the only one who has these thoughts. I can't be, can't be. I'm not alone on this island. All right. Alimony payments, what about that? Does it have a bearing on that?
Heather Quick:
It can and can't. I mean, you've lived with this person for so long and say now you're the only one working and you're like, "What? I'm going to have to pay alimony?" Well, maybe. We need to look at that.
Julie Morgan:
Yeah. Hold on. Okay. No, Heather. No. No, that's not what I meant.
Heather Quick:
I know, but that's what I've got to tell you.
Julie Morgan:
Okay. Heather, no, no, no, no, no. Let's go back. That's not what I meant. I meant him paying alimony.
Heather Quick:
Okay. Let's think about this. Okay, Julie, listen. Now, he's an alcoholic, but let's say he's functioning and he works. Okay. Well, then, how much do we address the problem? He goes, "Oops, I have to go to rehab. I can't pay you," which as you know, will not be surprising that has happened more than once.
So, that's a complicated question because like I said, what if the wife is the one working, what if he is working and now it's like, "Well, now I need to go to rehab, I can't earn money" Maybe, but he's going to have certainly income imputed to him, but that gets complicated.
Julie Morgan:
Heather, why did you give me an answer I didn't want to hear?
Heather Quick:
I know and I'm so sorry because you know I try to give you all the answers, but I know because it makes you think and you just look at it differently because none of this is really black and white. That, at the end of the day is why you have to talk to a divorce attorney because there's so many different ways to go with that very straightforward question. You have to get advice based on your particular facts, because many different things can happen with that.
Julie Morgan:
So, I could end up paying him alimony because he wasn't working. He lost his job and possibly he can't work now because like you said, he's going to rehab. Now, I need to pay him alimony because I'm the one working.
Heather Quick:
A possibility. Now, Julie, you know I would never let that happen to you. We would fight very hard, but I am telling you yes, those things can happen. In situations where we've had that conversation, the women were just as appalled and shocked as you are. Now, obviously spending all their money on alcohol and they could work and things like that, there's a lot of things that come into it, but it's worth thinking about. If you're in this situation, the more likely it is that could be even after divorce, so it's just hopefully get people thinking about this.
Julie Morgan:
The longer you support him, the longer you may have to support him. Oh my goodness.
Heather Quick:
Indeed.
Julie Morgan:
Oh my goodness, Heather. Okay. Child custody. You mentioned, this is probably the biggest place for substance abuse where it has a bearing in divorce.
Heather Quick:
Correct and this will be the issue that makes it relevant and this is when it has to go before the judge, because you're going to have a concern. I have heard from women before, "But if we divorce, when the kids go with him, they won't be safe because of this problem." Very, very valid concern. There is no doubt because now you don't know what's going on in that house versus at least when you're there, but it's also the impact on your children. I believe you're letting them know, "Well, this is okay," and you cover this up and you don't leave somebody who is in this situation.
The courts, they can do a lot. This is one of the areas where I do see the courts in our areas take pretty bold steps to protect children in ways that... Random drug testing will be required, they have these breathalyzers that are actually connected to an app on an iPad. It's not perfect as nothing is. However, there's quite a few safeguards that the courts can impose in a divorce on your spouse who has a problem. We do have to prove it.
Julie Morgan:
When I think about this and I say, this may be a situation where you feel like, "I don't want my kids to feel bad about this, so I don't want to say anything. I don't want other people to know, so I don't want to say anything," but really in terms of child custody, you really need to say something.
Heather Quick:
You absolutely do because this isn't something that you can hold back and talk about later. If this is existing, you're going to have to address it because if it's real, it's real and that would be a concern with you, with the kids versus if it's not. Yeah, it may be embarrassing, but he'll probably act as if it never happened and you're crazy and fight you on it potentially.
So, it's one of those things and sometimes in the initial divorce, maybe it doesn't come up. Maybe there wasn't enough to prove it. We've certainly gone back on cases, post-divorce, and you knew this was going on. We've been able to have enough evidence to have the judge implement these kinds of safety measures. If it's an issue, you should absolutely tell your attorney and be prepared to put your children above his potential embarrassment.
Julie Morgan:
Okay. So, let's go back to the child custody and time-sharing show that we did. If you want to listen to this, you can go to our website, womenwinningdivorce.com to listen and download that episode. Could this be a time where there could be an adjustment to the time-sharing? If you've figured this out, if the person may have a substance abuse problem even after the divorce, and this is a time that you could change the parameters of the time-sharing?
Heather Quick:
Potentially. It's harder when you don't live in the house so, what do you have? It's more difficult. Now, if when you were married and they did have a problem, a spouse knows and usually even on the phone. When they've been in a relationship with somebody, they'll say, "I can tell there's a change in the voice. I know on a phone call if they've been drinking," that's the kind of evidence you need. You have to have enough for the court to order testing on both people.
There are some tests that can show excessive alcohol abuse, and then the court will order supervision of the kids. He may that have to get a substance abuse evaluation, maybe some treatment, maybe just breathalyzer because they're like, "Hey, when they don't have the kids, they can do what they want. But when they're going to have the children, we want to know they're sober."
So again, there can be a spectrum of behavior, so it can get very extreme to somewhat mild. That's where the facts of your particular case come into play and, what evidence do we have to get before a judge and is it enough?
Julie Morgan:
Okay. Okay, because I know we talked about the fact that, those things, they're difficult to change. They're difficult to update, that agreement.
Heather Quick:
Correct.
Julie Morgan:
Okay.
Heather Quick:
Yeah and so, it's not just an easy, "Oh, they were out at the bar last weekend." No, I mean, in order to make a change, it's going to have to rise to the level where those children are in danger.
Julie Morgan:
Don't lie and say that this is happening when it's not really happening.
Heather Quick:
Correct. Correct. Yes, because that's only going to come back to harm you and we don't lie in court, you're under oath.
Julie Morgan:
Right and your lawyer will not agree with any of that. I know she won't.
Heather Quick:
That's correct.
Julie Morgan:
Heather, is there anything else you'd like to add on this topic?
Heather Quick:
If are in this situation, there is no judgment in our office if you think you want to move forward with the divorce. If you're worried that maybe you've had some issues in the past, and that you're afraid to move forward with the divorce because he's going to bring it up, well, I understand that, but call us.
Talk to someone in our office and let us tell you what we really think will happen based on our experience, so that you're not just wondering in your head and sometimes afraid to take that step. These issues of substance abuse they don't get better on their own. They don't and so, I would just encourage anybody going through this or knowing someone to reach out and let us help you through this process.
Julie Morgan:
Yeah. This is another situation where it doesn't hurt to ask. Ask the question.
Heather Quick:
Correct.
Julie Morgan:
Yeah. Well, Heather, it was good to see you again.
Heather Quick:
It was great to see you as well. Thank you so much as always.
Julie Morgan:
Thank you for listening to Women Winning Divorce. We hope you found information to help you navigate your divorce. If you like our show, please take the time to subscribe and provide a five star review. If you need more information, please visit our website at womenwinningdivorce.com, where you will find previous episodes and other helpful content. Join us next week as we continue our journey of women winning divorce.