In this episode we discuss how women can be victims of financial abuse. We explore strategies to protect women's financial interests during divorce proceedings.
"Women Winning Divorce" is a radio show and podcast hosted by Heather Quick, CEO and Owner of Florida Women's Law Group. Each week we focus on different aspects of family law to help guide women through the difficult and emotional legal challenges they are facing. Heather brings over 20 years of law experience that advocates and empowers women to achieve happier and healthier lives. Join Heather each week as she discusses family law issues including divorce, custody, alimony, paternity, narcissism, mediation and more.
This program was created to provide tips and insight to women with family law issues. It is not intended to be legal advice because every situation is different.
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Julie Morgan:
Welcome to Women Winning Divorce, with your host, Heather Quick. Heather brings over 20 years of law experience that advocates and empowers women to achieve happier and healthier lives. Each week, we provide knowledge and guidance on different aspects of family law to help lead women through the difficult and emotional legal challenges that they are facing. Listen in as she discusses issues including divorce, custody, alimony, paternity, narcissism, mediation, and other family law issues to provide insight on the journey of Women Winning Divorce. Welcome to the show. I'm Julie Morgan, and I'm joined by your host Heather Quick. Hi, Heather.
Heather Quick:
Good morning, Julie. How are you?
Julie Morgan:
I'm doing very well. How are you?
Heather Quick:
I am great. So happy to see your smiling face and listen to your soothing voice.
Julie Morgan:
It's wonderful to see you too.
Heather Quick:
It's wonderful to have you back.
Julie Morgan:
Oh, thank you. You know what? I was thinking, I was like, "Just last week, I told people that I would not be back." And so this week they're thinking, "Wait a minute, I'm hearing her voice. Why in the world is she back?"
Heather Quick:
Because we were going to crumble and so we did everything we could, short of breaking the law to say, "Julie, please come back." We begged and begged and she realized we're doing such good stuff here, that she had to be a part of it. So, thank you, ma'am. Thank you so much.
Julie Morgan:
Oh, that is too funny. Let me tell you guys, Heather will not let anything crumble, so don't believe what you just said. Now, today's topic, financial abuse. I remember talking to you about this, the first show and of course in the first show, we couldn't get really deep into it, but we're going to get deep into it today. All right?
Heather Quick:
Yes.
Julie Morgan:
Let's start off at the beginning. What is financial abuse?
Heather Quick:
Financial abuse has so many layers and can show up in many ways, but basically it's control, which all this stuff is ... all different kinds of abuse are about control, but it is controlling the money. I mean, and we'll get into it, so I don't want to spoil how far this can go, but it's truly limiting your spouse's access and even knowledge to finances, and what does that do? Gives you total control.
Julie Morgan:
It's all about control, isn't it?
Heather Quick:
It really is, as we go through these things and we talk about different things, yeah, that's where ... I mean, that is the common denominator in everything. It is this desire for control over a human being. There's just very many ways to go about it.
Julie Morgan:
All right. So, how common would you say financial abuse is in a marriage?
Heather Quick:
Really, it's the most common form of abuse in a marriage and least acknowledged.
Julie Morgan:
I wasn't expecting you to say it's the most common.
Heather Quick:
It's because I think, there are going to be people listening to this today as we go further, and they're going to say, "Oh my gosh, yeah. I recognize that, but I didn't know that was abuse." Abuse is abuse and it can show itself in many ways, and some things are very obvious as we know. When somebody physically assaults, you know what it is, you may not be strong enough or have enough clarity to leave, or take action but you know. You know that was a line that got crossed. A lot of this other stuff, it's fuzzy, because it goes along with a lot of other stuff and you're not real sure, you don't see it that way.
Julie Morgan:
Okay, all right. So, let's dig a little bit deeper. I think about this and I think I know the answer to this question, but you're going to answer it for me. If one spouse handles all of the money, I mean, is that really considered financial abuse?
Heather Quick:
No, no. That in and of itself? No, not at all because everybody's got their role in the marriage. Somebody, sometimes pays the bills and that is either the husband or the wife. That is how it works in a marriage. Everybody has certain things they do. Somebody's going to pay the bills, could be the same person who earns the money. They could both earn the money. Somebody balances the checkbook, if we're sharing it. Somebody sets the auto pay and that can be very common. It goes to another extent when we're talking financial abuse.
Julie Morgan:
Okay. And you know what? I wanted to clear that up right out of the gate, just in case that's something that's happening for people and they're thinking, "Wait a minute, hold on. Am I going through this?" So, just to clear that up now, another thing that you mentioned that I think is interesting, you said it's the least acknowledged?
Heather Quick:
Correct.
Julie Morgan:
How?
Heather Quick:
I think that's probably a really layered question, but one, you don't even recognize it to be financial abuse. We've talked about before, even with the emotional verbal abuse and when we've talked about the narcissism and maybe we've touched on it, but it builds. It builds because people come together, they've managed their own finances, or maybe not, if they marry really young, they didn't, but either way, eventually you're like, "Yeah, let's combine this. We have rent, a mortgage, electric, and other bills. Let's pool the money, let's bring it together." Now, if neither one of you are talking to each other, you're going to have a lot of overdraft fees because nobody's like, "Oh, I did this. I did that." It's okay, that's part of a natural progression that we got to decide who's using the debit. We don't write as many checks anymore, they do make them though. I will tell you, because I had to give a check somewhere. So, just that's a side note, but not everything's electronic.
So, different debit cards and paying attention, it starts that way, usually it then grows to another point. Almost all of the banks now have an app and they have control so that you know, for instance, I get a text when my daughter's account is below a certain amount, "Oh, I better look at that, talk to them, make sure they have money."
You can get almost every alert. You can do it by dollar amount and you can have spending alerts and then that's where it gets creepy. If somebody gets a call from your spouse and the husband's like, "Hey, what were you doing at target? Why'd you spend $250?" I mean, really? And that, you know they're tracking you.
Julie Morgan:
Okay, all right. And that's getting into the types of financial abuse, is that right?
Heather Quick:
Yes and how it could build and you just don't even recognize it and they're reasoning probably, "Well hey, we can't get overdrawn, we have a budget. I'm trying to keep us financially secure." Okay, that makes sense to all of us. We're like, "Yeah, you're right. Let's all be financially secure and let's not spend every dime we have and let's save and let's invest." But it starts that way. But then now you're shut out, or shamed for what you're doing, so you just don't recognize it. I guarantee, and I would so encourage and just really appreciate for women to respond on the show, in any comments or by emails to be like, "I learned something and I recognize something that's going on that I didn't know before."
Julie Morgan:
And by the way, you guys can definitely do that. You can go to our website, womenwinningdivorce.com. So you can leave us a comment, send us an email. We'd love to hear from you. Now, I thought this was interesting, financial abuse, what correlation is there to domestic abuse?
Heather Quick:
Usually that is, you're not even going to believe this, 99% of domestic violence cases will have financial abuse. That's what the studies show, and I know you're shocked. It's one of those first things that again we talked about, is that first level of control. Now they've mastered that, let's think about this, over that person, but this is a person that's not right. I mean, you're trying to control your spouse, who you're supposed to love and honor and share your life with, not control. Within their brain, it does go to the other level because eventually they're probably just seeking more control over them.
Julie Morgan:
Yeah, and I think about this, domestic abuse, that's control over my body, myself, my wellbeing, and then the financial abuse that's control over my money.
Heather Quick:
Exactly, and money makes the world go round. You're not buying gas without money, you are not buying food without money. The lights don't go on. I mean, there's just so much. If you think about, there's a woman in this relationship and there's the domestic violence. So, she knows that, I know I haveto get out. I've made that decision. I don't know where we bank, he tracks everything. I have no cash and now how do I leave, because I don't have that financial piece? This was many, many, many years ago, Julie, and there was a case and I know the woman said she was gathering all the change, just to put gas in the car, just to get out of there. I mean, it's true, and it's so sad, and it's nothing for anyone listening to this to be embarrassed about. But of course, I know that it is, and that again, no one ever talks about it. That's part of it, it's that shame.
Julie Morgan:
Also, we've talked about this control, but like you said, it's also the shame because the shame is what stops you from telling someone else about it.
Heather Quick:
Correct. Because one, you don't know if they're going to believe you and two, if they do, they just might not understand. You know what I mean? It's hard to understand that and if you've never been exposed to it and you just are like, "What? You have a debit card, you have a credit card," but they don't understand because you know, then we have domestic violence. They know what's going to happen when their spouse gets home if they got that alert that you spent money somewhere or went to lunch somewhere.
Julie Morgan:
Now, when I think about this as well, this probably crosses every socioeconomic line, right? This is for everyone.
Heather Quick:
Absolutely. I mean, and this can happen in any, just like we've talked about with the other forms of abuse, race, age, group, and socioeconomic class. This is not something, "Well, we don't have any money. That's why he does this." No, it can go from any level from, "Hey, we're paycheck to paycheck," to, "We've got six figure income," and it also can be, the woman can be working and this can still exist. So she can be earning money, but yet he's controlling it. So, it's really runs so deep in many relationships.
Julie Morgan:
Let's touch on that because so many women work these days, right?
Heather Quick:
Yes.
Julie Morgan:
That's just the way of the world now. So, you're telling me, it's possible that someone is going home and saying, "Here's my check." Or the money is being deposited into the account, but they never see it?
Heather Quick:
Right. Right, it's being deposited into the account and he's controlling what it's getting spent on and you are going to suffer the consequences if you spend money that he didn't approve of, or you know he is tracking you because he's got those things set up, so that it's pretty eerie. Like, "You go to lunch somewhere. I thought you were at work today. Where'd you go to lunch there? Where you went here?" Or, it's not a situation where you can take out cash with that out being known. And this is a little tip and we're probably getting it to at the end, but in talking about cash, because again such an electronic, debit world that now many places don't even take cash. We have certainly advised this, "Hey, he knows you're going to the grocery store weekly. When you go and he says, 'Do you want cash?' You can get some extra cash and then it only shows the whole bill and then begin putting that, even maybe creating an own account for you." So, that is one way, once you recognize this, to begin preparing yourself for an exit strategy.
Julie Morgan:
Okay, there are so many things that you just said, and we have to talk about this. But one thing I thought about is that, you mentioned the fact that a debit card, a lot of places don't accept cash. Think about during the height of the pandemic, people were like, "Please don't bring your money in here because it's dirty." Right?
Heather Quick:
Yes.
Julie Morgan:
I mean, seriously. Think about during that time, how it could have just really flourished during that time, as far as financial abuse.
Heather Quick:
Oh indeed. Because the financial abuse and we all experienced that feeling during the pandemic of a loss of control. I mean we were being told by our government what we could and couldn't do and where we could go and where we couldn't go and very different for our lives here in America. For a person who is controlling that can really ... and it did, domestic abuse spiraled in cases because let's say to husband "Hey, I have lost a lot of control over this part of my life." It certainly increased in the home where they could exert more control. But even today I was somewhere not that long ago, "No cash, we don't take cash anymore." I mean, so it's a different world and so when you're thinking of these things, that's got to plan ahead a little bit.
Julie Morgan:
You're listening to Women Winning Divorce with Heather Quick, owner and attorney for Florida women's Law Group. We're taking a quick break here and when we return, we're talking about more types of financial abuse. We touched on it a little bit, but we have more to talk about, stay with us.
Welcome back to Women Winning Divorce with Heather Quick, owner and attorney for Florida Women's Law Group. Heather, all right, so let's talk about the different types of financial abuse. You touched on it a little bit in the first segment. What is one example of how someone can experience this?
Heather Quick:
Well, we talked about it a little bit, controlling all the finances and purchases. We did touch on that but then what I would say also is generally the bank accounts are going to be only in their name, and/or maybe even large assets only in their name. What I want everybody to know, it doesn't mean it's not a marital asset, but they have maybe put the home only in their name, or something else. Again, in order to just be in total control and keep you from that access. That's certainly a type, that you will see because you may or may not be on the bank account, sometimes you will be secondary, but maybe not on all bank accounts, maybe just on what they say is the household account, not his account where the check goes in. You look shocked once again.
Julie Morgan:
Yeah, I am. Okay, so hold on, let's talk about this. One of the things you mentioned was marital assets. We did a whole show on that and if you want to go back and listen, you can go to our website, womenwinningdivorce.com to take a listen and download the podcast. I'm sitting here and I'm thinking, "Wait a minute, you said ... " Hold on, I didn't realize that he could buy a house without me signing any papers.
Heather Quick:
Yes, usually there will be, there may be some papers. He can totally have it in his name alone. Now then, whether the mortgage, particularly if he is the one earning all the money, because then the mortgage would need to be in his name. If you're both working and the mortgage needs to be in both names, you're both going to be on the house because the mortgage company needs to make sure of that, not that I know much about mortgage brokerage or anything like that, but that is a typical thing. However, in say a classic case where even if you work a little or work full-time, if he makes so much more, then he has the option and the mortgage broker is going to ask him, "Are both of your names on the mortgage or not?"
That can absolutely happen. If you had to sign anything, it essentially is acknowledging that, but it really gives you very little rights and then you can't get a home equity line. You're just not legally on that home. Again, control, control, control, control, just like they'll make decisions on vacations and big purchases, anything, control.
Julie Morgan:
Okay, you know what I thought about when you were talking about this? Okay, so let's say something happens and we do get a divorce, right?
Heather Quick:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Julie Morgan:
I won't have any credit because you had control of all of this.
Heather Quick:
Correct. That can be problematic for sure. Now sometimes you really just don't even know what your name's on. You don't know. I mean, I have met many women, I'll say, "You may have really good credit. You're just not aware." But yes, that is one thing that will, of course be a factor because as you then leave that marriage, leave that relationship, you are like, "Wow, I don't have anything established. I have to figure that out too." All these things can be daunting because you've already lived in such fear and fear is such a common emotion for anyone who is the victim of this, that now that's just one more reason.
Julie Morgan:
And then you may not even realize it's happening, so there's that.
Heather Quick:
Indeed.
Julie Morgan:
Oh boy. Okay, another thing. What about if I get an allowance?
Heather Quick:
Well, that typically happens, where they're like, "This is the amount of money you have to spend." Usually it is no matter what, again, the level of finances is, it's not enough, it's just really, again, controlling you, making you really think about what you're spending at the grocery store. I understand a lot of people are, I'm not that great at that and especially if the kids go with you, it is a free for all. Then you get home, you're like, "Oh my gosh, we got a bunch of cereal and cookies," but you're just trying to get through the store without getting kicked out.
But that puts you at that level and it's like, "Oh my gosh, over it." Because you know, one, you're going to have to answer for that. We talked a little bit about not having access to funds, he might put a limit, sometimes the bank does that, it does that on the debit cards, particularly for fraud. There's just whatever it is, $1,000, so you must go through some hoops if there's going to be a larger purchase through the debit card. He can lower that. I've done that, I have one account for the kids, they can't spend over a certain amount, and it won't be authorized. So, you're there at the grocery store and the limit's $250. You guys are taking stuff back. I mean, to that extent.
Julie Morgan:
So really, that's where the embarrassment comes in.
Heather Quick:
Absolutely, because especially if you're like, "I know there's money, you may or may not, but you really don't, you don't know. Now, you're at the grocery store and you're like, "I've got all this stuff. They've bagged it up. Now, what do we do? Do we really have to go put stuff back?" Yes, you may. Think about that. Think about that level of, I can just imagine that level of embarrassment and that feeling, which is exactly what he wants her to feel because boy, you know next time, she is going to be adding it up through the line because she doesn't want to go through that again.
Julie Morgan:
Think about how you feel, that was in front of, possibly in front of your children. So they see that and I mean, if they're old enough, they could possibly figure out the reason behind it all because children are smart, they're very smart.
Heather Quick:
They pick up on all that stuff. Correct, they do. They're so perceptive.
Julie Morgan:
Yeah, and so the level of embarrassment in front of your children, in front of the people in the store that you don't even know, it just makes you feel bad and you really ... you just don't want to go through it again, but then you end up going through it over and over and over again.
Heather Quick:
Correct. Most of us, I mean, when we go to the grocery store, we go to the same one. You get to know the people in the deli and the bakery and the checkout. I mean, they're the same people most of the time. So, it's just another level. It's not like you're with strangers, but because you know that's not right because you're not trying to spend more money than you have and you know where it's coming from you, you absolutely do and that is a second level of shame, there's that embarrassment, but you just know inside, "Oh my gosh, he totally is limiting me."
Julie Morgan:
And you're thinking, "Wait a minute, did that just happen? Did that just happen?"
Heather Quick:
Indeed, mm-hmm (affirmative).
Julie Morgan:
So, you also mentioned as far as we mentioned one major purchase, which is the house, a home, but also vacations and also other major purchases, you may not even have a say?
Heather Quick:
Oh, correct. Most likely you're not. You want to go on a beach vacation he's like, "Nope. Don't like the beach, we're going to the mountains." Or, "Nope, we're not buying air flights. We're going to make everybody suffer and take a 12-hour road trip." And you know, "Okay, now he's going to lose it more often because everybody's going to be in the car. It's going to be annoying." Whatever that is, it is not a democracy. You're living in a very controlling relationship. Now, he may make you think you have a say, but you know you don't, if that makes sense, you know?
Julie Morgan:
Yes.
Heather Quick:
It's because that's the manipulation that's that part of it that is that psychology of this person, who's this abuser, they twist it because they see it very differently, of course, their view. These women will tell people, "Oh yeah, we had a great time on a road trip. That's really what we wanted to do. We want to do this." Because sometimes you could only live in that kind of situation if you truly are coping by denial.
Julie Morgan:
You've never brought that topic up or you've never brought up that phrase, coping by denial and I've never even thought of it that way. I mean, in general, if you think about it, even if you're someone that cannot understand financial abuse, you can understand coping by denial because you possibly do that in life, in general, in some things, you know?
Heather Quick:
Well, we all do. I mean, it is a coping mechanism and sometimes you just are like, "All right, I can't handle this right now. I feel like I'm maxed out. So, I'm just going to go through the motions, not address it." Kind of Scarlet O'Hara, "I will think about that another day." That is for tomorrow. Let's get through today. Sometimes that's what we got to do. I mean, and there's nothing to be ashamed or embarrassed about. It's really acknowledging, because everybody's at a different place emotionally and financially and just like, "I can't deal with this right now, but I recognize it's there."
Because once you recognize it, you're not going to be able to tolerate it for that much longer, once you take yourself out of denial now, even if it's just your own come to Jesus moment with yourself like, "Okay, this is really happening." I think your own self is going to eventually, you're going to have the courage to leave.
Julie Morgan:
I really hope so. I hope so.
Heather Quick:
Me too, me too.
Julie Morgan:
But there's also a double standard with this. I can't buy anything, but you can buy whatever you want.
Heather Quick:
Correct. Then in many cases whatever they say may or may not be the truth, as to why they're doing this, but they could be running up a bunch of debt and ruining your credit and just spending money like crazy and then you don't even know. We've talked about it and I don't want to say upside, but from their story that they're saving money, but it could be to this extent where, oh, they're blowing through everything and controlling that. And that is even scarier because you don't even know who you owe and what's not being paid. What is he doing with this money? Doesn't seem legal and it's affecting you and that will affect your future for a long time, unfortunately.
Julie Morgan:
Yeah. And so that's just really the flip side of not having any credit, possibly. This is just having bad credit.
Heather Quick:
Which is worse and harder to dig yourself out from and still a very common way of abuse. It's all about control and then they're exercising that in a way that, "Well, I'm going to do this, I'm going to buy this motorcycle, I'm going to get this boat," but then, "Oh, now sell it." Or telling you, "Oh, I'm going to invest in different things," and then losing money or, "I'm going to go start a business." Again, certainly not being financially responsible, but then again, taking you out of that equation and the negative effect of that, plus being broke is pretty bad.
Julie Morgan:
Yeah. So of course, in some marriages, the wife does not work, but this could be financial abuse by saying, "You cannot work even if you want to," or if you have the time to do it.
Heather Quick:
Correct, because again, control, and the last thing they want is for you to have any independence. You may be like, "No, I'm going to go do this. I'm going to do something. Even if it's not a full-time career, I'm going to get some kind of part-time thing. I've got to get out of the house. I've got to begin to get some control over my life." That is admirable and many women will try. Then because you're doing that, one of the examples of what your husband could do is just really try to sabotage that for you, by calling your work all the time, or creating such emotional distress for you by constantly calling you or harassing you.
Then, I mean you can imagine, all the coworkers are going to be like, "Why is your phone keep ringing? You're not even working. All you're doing is dealing with this." That can really make it difficult as well for the woman who's just really tried and she's like, "I'm going to go do something."
Julie Morgan:
And then you'll end up right back at home because that's not something that really any employer is going to deal with.
Heather Quick:
Exactly and it can go to extremes where he shows up there, even. I mean, and yeah, they're going to be like, "You're out. That's too much trouble for us," and you're constantly being interrupted or missing work, if he's doing things to make you miss work.
Julie Morgan:
You're listening to Women Winning Divorce with Heather Quick, owner and attorney for Florida Women's Law Group. We're taking a break here in when we return. We're talk about why women stay and how to escape the abuse. Stay with us.
Julie Morgan:
Welcome back to Women Winning Divorce with Heather Quick, owner and attorney for Florida Women's Law Group, Heather, something we've talked about in the past whenever we've talked about abuse, is why women stay. As you've said before, this is not to make someone feel bad, but it is something that we need to consider, since we're talking about this. Why do women stay?
Heather Quick:
That's again, a very complex question and answer. However, there are some very real reasons. I think everybody can understand that. One, lack of financial resources is the main reason women stay in a marriage, number one. This type of abuse is all about control and power. As a woman in this situation, there may be financial resources, but she doesn't have the knowledge and understanding of what there is and she may not have access to it either. That's a true barrier that really stops them from taking that first step and we'll talk about different ways and things women can do but it's that fear and that, "At least if I stay here, I know what I have. If I leave ... " and not even get into the how would I leave. "If I leave, I don't know what's out there, and that unknown is scarier than the reality I'm living in."
Julie Morgan:
Yeah, because unknown, you don't know it, but whatever else is out there, you're thinking it could be worse.
Heather Quick:
Correct, and that's just part of our subconscious trying to protect us because the reality is, it's not going to be worse because you are going to have control. You are going to have an understanding of yourself and you are not going to be captive under someone else. It's going to be different. It will most definitely be different. However, until you take the first step, you don't know. There just has to be a level of faith in yourself and trust that if you are out of this situation, psychologically you're going to be so much healthier that you're going to be in a better situation because we are as humans, I think, resilient and strong. You know me, in my point of view, women are really strong and I have so much belief in what women can do and they will do when given the opportunity.
Julie Morgan:
You are strong and that's something that you may not have heard before, or you may not hear very often, but you are strong. Financial abuse, just like other abuses. It really leads to feelings of insecurity, low self-esteem. And that's really where they want you.
Heather Quick:
Indeed, because when you feel like that and we've all had a bad day and you feel really insecure about whatever or bad self-esteem, you know how that feels and that doesn't feel good. Well, that is where your husband wants you to feel all the time. They want you to stay in that and feel as though you can't do it. You have to have him because that makes you stay. If you believe, "I have to be with him and I can't do this on my own," then you won't. That really comes from, I mean, because basically, ladies and Julie, the way I feel, he's just a bully and bullies are the ones who have a low self-esteem and that's why they must control other people. That's why he is trying to make you feel better, make you feel worse to make him feel better because he knows you can do it. He knows you've got the ability, and that's why he wants to control you, to keep you from shining on your own and going out and doing what you can do on your own. He knows if you have that ability, you're not staying with his sorry butt.
Julie Morgan:
So, that's why he wants to keep you know, at that point, keep you at that level, so you will not go anywhere and he can keep on doing what he's doing?
Heather Quick:
Yes and then he feels like, "Hey, I'm the greatest, and I got all this because I'm basically holding them captive, my wife ... " and of course the kids, once the kids realize it, and strong enough, they'll leave. Maybe before the wife will, once they're adults.
Julie Morgan:
Now, this is something that we touched on in segment one of the show, or actually segment two of the show, the fact that this could lead to the difficulty of finding a job, getting a house if you leave, getting credit cards if you leave, it leads to all of that.
Heather Quick:
It does. I mean, that is the reality of what can happen with no credit or bad credit. Those are going to be obviously situation specific. Those are going to be a burden that you're going to have to overcome. However, he's probably going to have to provide some support to you. So, that is going to hopefully get you over that hurdle. That's not in every case, of course, but in your mind, there may be women listening to this thinking, "How am I ever going to leave?" But I want you to know, it may be a case where it's an alimony case. There may be that spousal support that's going to get paid. If you have children, there may be child support. I'm not saying that may be enough overall, but it's going to be a start and it can and will happen. We may not know how everything's going to happen right away, because you got to just take one step at a time.
Julie Morgan:
One step at a time, yes. And if you'd like to listen to the shows on alimony, you can go to our website, womenwinningdivorce.com. So leaving, it can happen. One thing that you mentioned is that you got to plan it out. So, how can you do that? What steps can you take?
Heather Quick:
Okay, first you make the decision, "Okay, I am not staying." That doesn't mean that happens today, it depends. Of course, safety issues, yes, those are reasons to leave today, but let's suppose we're making a decision. You know the financial abuse and you're like, "I am going to begin making a plan." Now, if you are able to go to counseling, if you have counseling for yourself, this is a great, a safe place to where you can talk about those kinds of things and/or follow this advice. Like we talked about earlier, you go to the grocery store because anyone experiencing this, like all other types of abuse, it can be so many levels on the spectrum. Some people may have more options than others.
One, you've acknowledged it and you've made a decision. Now, if it's going to the grocery store and getting extra cash every time, start doing that. Now, be careful and don't put that in somewhere he's going to find it, and if it's a bank, that's a whole other issue as far as an address and somewhere he wouldn't find out, but hopefully you have a good friend and maybe you can have a nice little box and you keep your cash there with a good friend. Maybe there's a place in the trunk that seems secure.
I like keeping it outside of where your husband would be and/or kids, because then all of a sudden they find it and then you're like, "Oh great, now I'm starting over." So, that is really one of the first steps. It may have been so long since you really looked into getting a bank account or how do I set that up? A lot of times, local credit unions, littler banks are a little easier. If you don't want statements or you want it by email, please do a new email that's only on your phone and begin to put it there. I mean, that is a really great first step.
Julie Morgan:
What about telling friends and family? Having someone else on your side with this?
Heather Quick:
It's so important. I mean Julie, because they're going to help, if they can help you, they will. Many times that embarrassment, there's just so many things we can make up in our head about fear. But if you have a good relationship with your parents, you ought to confide in them. Even if they love your husband, they don't know all that and blood's thicker than water in most cases, I think.
So, if you have family, I would at least begin to share it because now you're not bottling it in. You are acknowledging it and hopefully they can help you because maybe you're going to need a place to save for a little bit. Maybe you're going to need some help financially. Sometimes, when you're in this situation, that's what you need and your husband is counting on you not doing that. He's counting on you not reaching out and telling anybody about this. You may be afraid, "He's going to be mortified. If I tell the family." Again, you're putting his thoughts and needs ahead of your own, and that is something else that takes practice doing, because you've been doing that for so long, most likely.
Julie Morgan:
And then possibly, they may have a safe place at their house where you can stash some cash, I don't know?
Heather Quick:
Indeed and use their address. When you're afraid, everything seems impossible but if you really are able to confide in somebody, it may really change the perspective. But it's hard. That first time you're going to say this out loud, it's going to be hard, but that's okay. It's going to be worth it.
Julie Morgan:
And it's going to help you mentally as well. We've touched on the mental aspect, that is a huge thing.
Heather Quick:
Oh indeed, indeed. Knowing one, that somebody supports you and that the whole world didn't collapse when you shared what's going on and they still love you, and they're your friend, your family. Now, you're like, "Okay, well that wasn't as bad." It's going to give you that strength and that mental calm and help overcome maybe the fears and the voices that say, "Oh, don't do this. This is not going to work out." Which everybody has those little voices of doubt that can sneak in.
Julie Morgan:
Yeah, and they can help you with that doubt. Yeah, to think about different direction, a different direction.
Heather Quick:
Indeed.
Julie Morgan:
Yeah, all right. So, what if you don't know anything about bank accounts, credit card statements, any of that? I mean, should you try to get that information?
Heather Quick:
I think that's good. You may find out there's more than you thought, less than you thought, but again, you need to know. Very often, not always, but sometimes there is a joint bank account, but you just don't have the access or control. If you know where you bank, you can go there and ask for bank statements. "Oh hey, I just want to get some statements on all the accounts we have," and then you don't have to name them all, just say which ones we have. Again, it gives you that information. Bank statements have so much information because then if credit cards are being paid, you can see and you go, "Oh, we have a credit card here." Or it may say where the mortgage is being paid. There's a lot of information, particularly since the majority of us are using debit cards for a lot of the living expenses and electronically, from the very beginning. We're not writing as many checks and putting them in the mail, we're doing things online. But fortunately, that will still show on the bank statements.
Then that is going to provide a lot of information. Like I said, maybe good, maybe bad. Information is what it is. If you cannot attach feelings to it and just know I'm just getting information, maybe I'm hoping that gives you a little more courage to go get them and look at them.
Julie Morgan:
I didn't even think about this, but yeah, it does. It has a lot of information on there and you could possibly use this information in the future.
Heather Quick:
Oh indeed. If you're getting a divorce, this is very helpful. We, as your attorney and our paralegals, our team, that's one of the first things we say, "Go to the bank, get some bank statements. It's okay that you don't know how much you guys spend, go get the statements and then we'll help you through that."
Julie Morgan:
But someone possibly has said, "I can do that?"
Heather Quick:
Yes they have. They're like, "My name may not be on it?" And it may not, but it might. That's the thing where I was saying, Julie, yes, he's controlled so much, but it doesn't mean you're not on these accounts, but it could, and we'll help you. You can see, there may be still accounts in only his name, but you can see where money goes in and out. You very well may be on the account and even if you're just a user, you can go get a statement. Nobody can keep you from doing that. If they do, hey, at least you tried. I mean, there are always those circumstances, but it's a good first start and it's very empowering. It's like you said to say, "Oh, I could do that?"
Julie Morgan:
Yeah, it doesn't hurt to try.
Heather Quick:
Exactly.
Julie Morgan:
And possibly go to a bank that's far away from your house, maybe? Just a branch that's far away.
Heather Quick:
Maybe so, in case he's charmed people, or you never know. A lot of times, as we've talked about, these men are very charismatic, controlling and whatever, and could be he's buddied up with someone there and they call them or whatever. "Oh, your wife was in here today." Yeah, want to avoid that.
Julie Morgan:
Yeah. Anything else you want to add on this topic?
Heather Quick:
I mean, I think we've covered a lot and again, I think we've done a good job and I think people are listening, it may give them a lot more questions and that's okay because there's so much you can touch on in this hour. So I'm hopeful, we've given a good overview and some education to really help people think about it and not only their situation, but maybe somebody they know. Again, we've talked about that where it's like, "Oh, I think I've seen that. Maybe I could be the friend for that person. And maybe she won't feel so alone."
Julie Morgan:
Exactly. Well Heather, it was great to see you again. I'll see you again next week, right?
Heather Quick:
Yep, looking forward to it. Thank you.
Julie Morgan:
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