In this episode Heather examines the intricacies of "Gray Divorce". What is it? Who is it for? Why does it exist? Learn all about it, and your rights during the divorce on this episode of Women Winning Divorce.
"Women Winning Divorce" is a radio show and podcast hosted by Heather Quick, CEO and Owner of Florida Women's Law Group. Each week we focus on different aspects of family law to help guide women through the difficult and emotional legal challenges they are facing. Heather brings over 20 years of law experience that advocates and empowers women to achieve happier and healthier lives. Join Heather each week as she discusses family law issues including divorce, custody, alimony, paternity, narcissism, mediation and more.
This program was created to provide tips and insight to women with family law issues. It is not intended to be legal advice because every situation is different.
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Women Winning Divorce
Episode 10
The Basics of a Grey Divorce
Julie Morgan:
Welcome to Women Winning Divorce with your host Heather Quick. Heather brings over 20 years of law experience that advocates and empowers women to achieve happier and healthier lives. Each week, we provide knowledge and guidance on different aspects of family law to help lead women through the difficult and emotional legal challenges that they are facing. Listen in as she discusses issues, including divorce, custody, alimony, paternity, narcissism, mediation, and other family law issues to provide insight on the journey of Women Winning Divorce. Welcome to the show. I'm Julie Morgan, and I'm joined by your host, Heather Quick. Hi, Heather.
Heather Quick:
Hi, Julie. How are you today?
Julie Morgan:
I'm doing very well, thank you. You got me with another one, another topic. I looked at this, I said, "What is that? I've never heard of that." Okay, I know I'm not the only one. Let's tell everyone what that is, what is a gray divorce?
Heather Quick:
I don't know how long ago this became popular, but probably at least about maybe 10 years ago, because really, I think, they saw a spike in the baby boomers divorcing. With that, they decided to call this a gray divorce, meaning gray hair, associating it with gray hair, which is, thank you very much, you can call mine a blonde divorce, because I'm not going gray. I will tell you that right now. Now, I did... Julie liked that one, I know you liked that one.
Julie Morgan:
Pulled out all my gray hairs. Yes, I really did. I pulled them all out. I'm just like, "You know what, I'd rather be bald, I can't do this. Can't do this." But anyway, gray, you said gray hair. So, would this also you think about a certain age as well?
Heather Quick:
Yes, and this was a based on statistics from the Census Bureau, which we know delays a little bit, but it's showing this high divorce rate for couples between 55 and 64. We continue to see that, that is an age group that really, in the past, I would even say 10 years, we've just really seen an increase in divorce in that particular demographic.
Julie Morgan:
What are some of the reasons, because it also, it seems like this could possibly be a specialty as well, gray divorce, but anyway, what are some of the reasons?
Heather Quick:
If you Google it, you'll find that there are many topics and things that address that specific demographic. But if we look at those individuals who were married that long ago and are in this age demographic, it coincides with a lot of things. One, probably children leaving the home, that last child leaves home, parents are in their 50s maybe. Then, it's just such a change in the dynamic between the two and it may not happen right away. Sometimes it happens right away. They're like, "I waited to get that last child to college and I'm done." And they're here a few months later.
Other times it may be a few years after that, that it's changed now that the kids are gone and it's harder to keep it together. There's also, I think, a change now than even 20, 30 years ago, that it's okay. What the statistics do show is that there are more women filing for divorce in these age groups than men. I think that's because it's more accepted and maybe now they're realizing like, "I don't want to stay in this anymore. I've got another 20, 30 years left in my life and this is not how I want to spend it."
Julie Morgan:
Hmm. There's something to be said about that, especially now, people making different changes in their lives. And also I think about just what you mentioned, people, they're living longer. So, if they're over 50, I know you mentioned 20 or 30 years, but they could possibly live even longer. They're thinking, "This is not what I want for my life in the second half of it."
Heather Quick:
I think that's so true.Yes, there's the reality of that.Many times, those first 20 years of marriage you're really busy building a family, wealth, community, there's a lot going on. Then when things may begin to change, especially, I think it's very notable and real to say when the children leave, but things start to happen. Then as we age, I think we get more perspective as we lose loved ones, parents, things, you really get a perspective that's different, and that gives you more clarity on how you want to spend your future. I also think that a lot of men get really grumpy and women think, "I don't want to be with them anymore." They really are turning into that grumpy old man. The women feel rejuvenated and here I don't have to sit here and take care of kids all day, I’m ready to go have fun. And they're a grouch. So, I said it.
Julie Morgan:
I know I'm not the only one laughing. I can't be.
Heather Quick:
Because it's true. It's true. It could be the reverse, but I obviously have a perspective where I talk to more women, and I see it. I notice that, it's a similar thing.
Julie Morgan:
Another thing I thought about is they just don't have anything in common anymore. They've grown apart possibly because he may have always been at the office, she was at home with the kids. They started to have different likes and dislikes.
Heather Quick:
Absolutely. I think that's a very common reason and it's really growing apart during the marriage and it happens not intentionally, but then sometimes you're like, "Well, I have more fun with my friends and with the kids and I don't need to make that much of an effort." Then when it's just the two of you, yeah, you may find like, "Gosh, I don't really know this person anymore. Or I do know this person and I just don't like them anymore."
Julie Morgan:
We said the same thing at the same time. I just don't like them anymore. Yeah. And you think, "Why am I here? What am I doing? What's going on here?"
Heather Quick:
Agreed. When you're in a relationship like that, and there are so many extremes and I know sometimes it can be difficult, because a woman's thinks well, he's not a bad person. You can always justify all the reasons why this may not be good, that I shouldn't leave. I'm not advocating one way or another. But I do think that we all have something to give back to this world. When we're not surrounding ourselves with people who help make us better, we really are doing a disservice to everybody. That works both ways in the relationship. I mean, that's why you have to work at it. Sometimes it's so much work that after this point in time, you're like, "I just don't have it in me anymore. I feel like I'm doing all this work and it's not getting better."
Julie Morgan:
Something that continues also to come up in our conversations, whenever I think about any of these topics, is therapy. It's seems like the need to have therapy after a situation like this, it seems like a therapist may be a good idea.
Heather Quick:
Oh, absolutely. Because if you are going through this, this is another major life transition. I think it's always a great idea to have a sounding board to work through those feelings and the changes and how your identity really shifts. We all identify ourselves in one way or another or in more than one way. But when you're married, you identify yourself as married and now you aren't. If that's been a big part of who you are, therapy will be helpful because there's going to be changes and you want to go through that and embrace it in a healthy way.
Julie Morgan:
I understand that you, when you talk to clients, you talk to them about legal issues, legal things. But if someone comes in, and they're looking to get a divorce later on in life, how do you set this up as far as the things that they have to think about at that time? Because it seems like it's even more than they would have to think of if they were younger.
Heather Quick:
I think that I have to break it down, because everybody's going to be at a different spot. I think that that's where therapy can be so helpful, which is why we do suggest that, because they can, with a therapist, she can work through the issues as they come up. Whereas from the legal perspective and that process, it happens in the way it happens. Even if you're not the one advocating or the one wanting this divorce, you're going to have a different approach and a different emotional state than somebody who does want it. Because if you are moving forward and you're initiating the process for divorce, well, clearly you've thought this through, and you're at acceptance, some level of acceptance within yourself because you haven't engaged your spouse in usually all that thought process, but you're already there. Sometimes that is the difference when the person who is served with the divorce, they're not privy to your thoughts and all these decision makings that got you to acceptance before them. There's more, there's just more to deal with than the person who's initiating it.
Julie Morgan:
That person that's initiating it, they've already considered some of the factors that you need to consider when you're thinking about a gray divorce. Number one that I-
Heather Quick:
Hopefully, most likely.
Julie Morgan:
Yeah. Yeah. That's what I'm thinking, because, I mean, number one always really goes back to money. At least that's what I believe it feels like, it goes back to money. So, when we talk about some of the factors to consider in a gray divorce, finances, what do you have to think about in terms of finances?
Heather Quick:
Well, and there's a lot. It's really like, well, there's the division of the assets and if there's a home and now there's no minor children, many times that's a large asset for individuals and that might need to be sold, even though one person may really want to stay there. But if there's a lot of equity and if you're at this time, in 2022, there's a booming real estate market for those selling, not so much those buying. There's a lot of factors there to think about and, well, how close are you to retirement? What type of money is in retirement? How will it be divided? Just because one spouse worked the whole marriage and you didn't, doesn't mean that retirement's not yours, that you get half of it. How is that going to play out? Those are some good things and issues financially that we think through.
Julie Morgan:
Heather, have we talked about that? Because I'm confused, you're telling me that my retirement I will have to share with someone that I'm divorcing?
Heather Quick:
Yes, Julie, if you have been married during the time you've been putting that money away, all that money you've earned during the marriage is marital. Let’s say you put in, you've got $500,000 in your IRA, that was all earned during that 20-year marriage. That's getting split in half. I can see that look on your face. You are shocked.
Julie Morgan:
That hurts.
Heather Quick:
Yes, yes. I have heard those thoughts before.
Julie Morgan:
Because I'm thinking, I went to work and I stood behind a microphone day in and day out. And this is my voice that has really been used to the full. You're telling me that my 401(k), my IRA, all of the above will go to someone that did not do that work?
Heather Quick:
Yes, yes. Now, again, if you're married during all that time, maybe they were married during a part of that, then it'll have a marital component, but yes. When you are married, everything you earn and everything your spouse earns is marital. Everything you save during that marriage is marital and everything that he saves, everything that he incurred as debt is marital, just like you. When we talked about in those shows previously about how the finances are intertwined and having an understanding of that prior to getting married, that's why that's so important.
Julie Morgan:
We have to revisit that, Heather, we do, we have to revisit that.
Heather Quick:
I know, because it hasn't sunk in yet. I mean, we've been doing the show for weeks, months and I didn't know you didn't know that yet.
Julie Morgan:
We talked about it, I'm starting to have gray hair. So, I forgot. I just-
Heather Quick:
Well, you know what, Julie, you know what that is? You hear not only really what you want to hear, but really what applies. That is a very good example. We may have, I'm sure it's come up. It wasn't something you were focused on or we didn't really drill down. That's the way it is for many people, even when we have multiple conversations, they don't always hear it at that time.
Julie Morgan:
You're listening to Women Winning Divorce with Heather Quick, owner and attorney for Florida Women's Law Group. All right, Heather. So, we talked about one of the factors to consider in a gray divorce, finances. I am pretty positive we can keep on going with that one. And you know what, let's do that. It's important and it seems like at different stages, I mean, this is just wild. A financial advisor or an accountant, it's really good to have this person right next to you.
Heather Quick:
Oh, absolutely. It is great, many people are very savvy and they have a good understanding of everything that exists. But as the assets grow, and as there more things to consider when we're going through and dividing the assets and are all things, how are they equal? A cash account of, say, $100,000 isn't equal to a IRA of $100,000 because you don't have access to both equally, except depending on your age and what's going to happen based on the age when you can begin to tap into that. It's really important to have those expert advisors. Because at the end of this divorce now, you are in charge of what you have. You are going to want to surround yourself with those individuals who are going to really advise you and help you.
Julie Morgan:
Because you have to think about it. If you are not at retirement age, there are so many factors to consider if you're trying to cash some stuff out.
Heather Quick:
Indeed, because there's going to be penalties and taxes. So, again, we've talked about this in episodes previously, what are your plans? What do you want? Things of that nature. It's important to have those discussions with your attorney, because that will influence, what assets mean the most to you? How do we get you best situated? If we're dividing everything 50-50, that may sound very simple. But for some reason, it's not always that simple, and it's not that straightforward, and there's got to be negotiations and understanding on which assets do you want?
Julie Morgan:
After you've talked to someone, and we talked about this before on another episode of Women Winning Divorce, if you want to listen back to previous episodes, please go to our website, womenwinningdivorce.com. We've talked about asking that question, what do you want? What do you want out of this? What is your end game? I think about a gray divorce and I'm thinking, "I need to understand my end game sooner rather than later."
Heather Quick:
Yes, absolutely. Now and if you haven't worked, then yes, you really need to think about it. If you're the spouse who hasn't worked and then your spouse, let's say, maybe they're going to work another five, maybe 10 years, what's the impact of that? For most individuals in their career, once they hit their 50s, they really basically hit their stride and they're really going to make a lot more money. It's important that if you are not the high earner or not the earning spouse, you understand that position. If you are the breadwinner, so many women have that exact reaction that you had about sharing their money. I think men are resolved that's probably what's going to happen. But women see it differently.
Not that I don't agree, but I also suggest to them, "All right, well, do you want to share a bigger part of the pie, or if you want to divorce now and want to move on with your life, do it now, cut your losses, you're going to make it back. If you're in a career that's in that trajectory, if you've been the breadwinner. It's important on whatever side you're looking at this from, that you are understanding the end game.
I do think that most women that I meet that are really in this stage, they have, they've really thought it through, because they're at a point they've invested maybe half their life in this relationship and they really want to do something else with the other half. They've really thought it through and they've gotten clarity on what matters most to them, which, of course, I mean, we know you need money to survive and make things go along. But many times there's a lot of clarity there for those women.
Julie Morgan:
Okay. I have a question. So, let's go back. Think back to our show on prenups and postnups, is it possible to put in the prenup you can't get any of my 401(k)?
Heather Quick:
Oh, absolutely.
Julie Morgan:
Okay.
Heather Quick:
Absolutely.
Julie Morgan:
Think ahead. Think ahead.
Heather Quick:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Julie Morgan:
Okay. Got it. All righty.
Heather Quick:
I know that made you happy.
Julie Morgan:
It did.
Heather Quick:
I know that did, I can see that you're now okay with this.
Julie Morgan:
I am. I am. I really am. I really am. So, let's talk about health insurance because, again, at this stage in life, it's necessary. So, how does that work out?
Heather Quick:
That is a big concern for a lot of people. I understand that and particularly if you've had any preexisting conditions and you're worried like, "How am I going to have health insurance if I get divorced?" I'm not, because Medicare kicks in at 65, "Maybe I'm not there yet. How is at all going to come down?" That is a question and a fear/concern of many women that we work with them on because COBRA, if you're familiar, that is, and not all employers even offer that. So, that's got to be the one thing. It tends to be if it's a large company.
If you get a divorce and you're like, "I've got great health coverage through my husband's company." I worry about that, we help them through different insurance brokers, we assist them in finding insurance for themselves. I will tell you that's easier than it was 20 years ago. That is going to be something that is going to be a new expense that they did not have before and/or it was an expense, it was just coming out of maybe your husband's paycheck. Now that's going to be part of your need. That is going to go into the overall alimony equation.
Julie Morgan:
You said that you help, you assist them with finding insurance. Is that something Susan does or is... I was just thought about Susan from a previous show. So, is that something she helps you with or just anyone else?
Heather Quick:
Yes. Our client liaison knows various different insurance brokers. We try to assist our clients in finding that out, because even before the divorce, it's important to know what type of insurance you're going to be able to get, what's that going to look like and what's that cost. So, yes, we definitely do that to get our clients set up and understanding what's going to be available to them.
Julie Morgan:
Susan is busy.
Heather Quick:
She is busy. She is busy. As our client liaison, she works with our clients on so many facets of the process from before they even get started to when they're getting started to even afterwards. So, yes. She fills a vital role in the firm.
Julie Morgan:
Yeah. Okay, if I haven't worked in 20, 30 years, that's another thing that I really need to take into consideration in terms of alimony and how much I'm asking for, and then the house and all of that.
Heather Quick:
All of that, right. And it's not that you need to have a decision one way or another, because you're not going to really understand maybe all the implications of everything, but you recognize, "Okay, that's going to be a decision that's going to have to be made about health insurance. I'm going to really understand what is available to me, what that's going to cost." When we talk about the home, that can be one of the hardest things, particularly the longer you've been in a home and it becomes something you can identify with and you're comfortable and it's going to be a big change, not only the divorce, but then moving when you've had so much there.
In this double-edged sword, let's say you've been in there a long time, in the house and you've got a low mortgage. You think, "Well, I could maybe afford it," but then you've also built up a lot of equity. That equity must be shared. There are instances where on a balance sheet, it will appear dollars equal, but again, not all dollars are equal. All that equity in that house is not going to pay the bills or buy gas or groceries.
Heather Quick:
A lot of this, a lot of these decisions are difficult. You have to get real with what you're going to do. Sometimes the idea of a house sounds great. It does, "And it's our house and I want our kids and I don't want anything changed." But things are changing and change can be hard, but it can be great and it can be very positive experience if you choose to look at it that way and move through that and reduce the amount of work that you might have to do in keeping a home that was for the family, large enough for everybody, that now is not really something that you need and financially it may make things harder on you. These are decisions we make on the very first day, or when you're thinking about the divorce, it evolves throughout the process. It is a hard decision to make, I will tell you, it's hard for many men and women on kind of giving up that residence.
Julie Morgan:
Yeah. Because the memories, they also won't pay for the expensive side of the home.
All the extras, even though that's what you think about. When they come into the office, that's probably what they're thinking about. They're thinking about, "Oh, I have to give up the house and I brought home my first child while we were living in that house." That's possibly one of the first things that comes to their mind, but there are so many other things.
Heather Quick:
Yes, there are and there's a lot. It's normal. It's completely understandable. There are so many things and again sometimes they're like, "Well he loves this house. This is his favorite place ever, but I want my money out of it." Everybody has varying degrees of attachment. It can be hard, because those are emotional reasons, not rational reasons. It doesn't make them wrong or right. As attorneys for our clients, our goal is to get them to see the reality of the situation and that can be difficult sometimes.
That's recognizing and trying really hard to get the client to see that it's an emotional reason. Realistically, maybe we need to sell the house, because one, it doesn't make sense and, two, maybe there's just too much money in there that you're not going to be able to find other assets to pay off your other spouse. That's what the court's going to do. Sometimes we're in a situation where the court will order that sold, and it's a process of getting an acceptance of that reality. It's scary and difficult, all those things.
Julie Morgan:
So, the goal really is take away the emotional, which will be difficult. Think about the rational. The rational is understanding upkeep, mortgage, insurance, taxes, emergency repairs, everything.
Heather Quick:
Everything. You've had to think of these things, but you had a partner and that was both of your responsibilities. Now, it's just going to be yours financially. And yeah, there's a lot. It's not that I dissuade people at any point. It's just helping to objectively make decisions by doing the pros and cons and let's look at it and really think more of where you're going to be in three years than just where you are right now and how hard something seems right now.
Julie Morgan:
You're listening to Women Winning Divorce with Heather Quick, owner and attorney for Florida Women's Law Group. Heather, the kids, we still have to think about them when they're adults. Right?
Heather Quick:
True.
Julie Morgan:
It's tough on them too. Even as an adult.
Heather Quick:
It is and sometimes it's even harder. I can't tell you why, except that they can verbalize and depending on where they are at that time in their life. They feel like, "Oh, now I have to deal with this. This is a burden on me." Yeah, it can be. Sometimes they are more prone to take sides than younger kids. I don't really know why; I haven't ever really delved into that one. I do know that in my experience, I've seen throughout the practice that even though they're adults, they seem to struggle a little bit more or may in a different way.
Julie Morgan:
Yeah. I wonder why.Taking sides, I think about the fact that they may just feel free to vocalize things. "I'm grown, I can say that I prefer... I don't like what you did and I can appreciate what you did. I'm taking your side over the other." That's what I'm thinking.
Heather Quick:
I think so. Then, this is going to be that classic example that are on all the movies and TV shows, but then let's just say this, "Oh, dad says, mom, you want to take all his money, poor dad. Oh my gosh, don't take all his money and you shouldn't be so greedy." Clearly, we know where they're hearing that from. Yet, they don't know about his 30-year-old girlfriend, which doesn't mean to say, "You're being greedy. You're taking all his money." It's just being like, "Do you really know what he's done and who he's going to be parading around here when this is over?"
What I always share with my clients, with our clients and our team in general, we support our client and suggest that they don't share that information despite what their husband is doing. I think, it does more damage long term to your relationship with your children, because they're going to figure, they're going to see it, they're going to know. I just think that children are more prone to want to support their dad, because they know their mom's not going anywhere. That is completely biased and crazy but it's just the way I feel. I think that they do treat their mothers disproportionately bad when they're mad and angry and say things and they really don't carry on that way with their dad as often.
I think even as adults and that as the mother, maybe protector, really don't involve them in that. That's again where therapy comes into place and whether they understand or not isn't as important as you sticking up for yourself. This divorce involves just the two of you. If you are getting that kind of backlash from your adult children, the best you can do to insulate yourself, so that you don't say something that you will regret. They're just venting based on information they were fed.
Julie Morgan:
Don't involve the kids. I remember you saying this before on a previous show, but we weren't even talking about adult children. We were talking about the younger kids. So, really no matter what stage of life you're in, this is between you and your spouse. So, keep it to yourself.
Heather Quick:
I couldn't have said it better. Yep. It doesn't do any good. That's their parent. They're part of them. Really there's no good outcome. There is no good outcome, bad mouthing their dad. He should have that same advice. There may be a time when you're not in it later, and you're having a heart-to-heart, one-to-one conversation and your kids want to understand it. You're talking from a point of this was in the past and you can probably talk in a better way that's not tainted one way or another, and you have a little more clarity. That I think is absolutely appropriate.
But when you're in it, I don't think that there's anything beneficial to come out of sharing what's going on. I know you will feel the need to defend yourself. I know that you will. But they've already expressed their point of view based on what they heard. I don't think anything you say will change that in that moment.
Julie Morgan:
I'm standing here thinking about listening to these shows and how, for some people, this could be very soul-searching. Just a thought.
Heather Quick:
I would think so. I don't think it's easy to not defend yourself or have your own children feel like they're ganging up on you or siding with your dad. I mean, that's going to be difficult. There's no doubt about it. I empathize, but I know that there's probably not a lot you're going to say that's going to change their mind in that. Really, if you can focus on what you need to do during this time, it typically does play out. Again, it's a marathon, not a sprint.
Julie Morgan:
So, you think about this. This could really be a crisis for them. And it sounds like it's possibly catching them off guard. When you think about it, it doesn't seem like it should, but maybe it is. It's catching them off guard. They're totally shocked, if they're adults, they don't live there anymore. So, that's probably the reason.
Heather Quick:
I think that, yes, I think you're going to have extremes where they're shocked and you guys did a good job of pretending. Maybe not all marriages are horrible, where the kids don’t know that they just grew apart. There's nothing horrific one way or another, no affairs, it's just that. It can be confusing when there doesn't seem to be an apparent reason and that's normal. Because, of course, like most of us, I mean, if we're honest, they're thinking, "Well, how is this going to affect me?" That's really where that comes from. "Wait, now, where do I go? You mean, I'm going to have to choose between who I'm going to see at the holidays? How is this going to work? I'm getting married next year, how is this going to work? This is going to be awkward." Now, those are realistic things that, especially when you can look at it from that perspective, you can say, "They're not really mad at me. They're just mad at the way it's going to affect them."
Julie Morgan:
That is a good way to look at it. Yeah, absolutely. Some children, they'll feel guilty. Like, what did they do wrong?
Heather Quick:
They may, and especially if they're like, "Oh yeah, I was difficult. I made it harder. I did this or that." Again, whatever their feelings and whatever they say, it's really coming from a point of, "How this is affecting me?" Their perception. Even if they are angry, those emotions typically pass, I think. A lot of times they'll say, "Yeah, I wondered if you were ever going to do this." I've heard that certainly from clients in the past and in my experience, kids say, "Yeah, we were wondering how long it would take or when you'd ever do this."
Julie Morgan:
That would be me. I was thinking the exact opposite. I would be like, "Yep. I saw it. So, you finally did it."
Heather Quick:
Right.
Julie Morgan:
Good for you.
Heather Quick:
Exactly.
Julie Morgan:
Just, it just depends on how perceptive that child is.
Heather Quick:
I think that's a great point, Julie, because like every single one of these things we talked about, you could have a different view. You could have each one of those from, say, your three kids or different kids. They're going to go through it, because they're caught off guard, so they've got to go through that whole cycle of grief as well, because they're going to grieve you two together as what they knew, and that is normal. No matter how old they are, they are going to go through that and I think that's fair.
Julie Morgan:
What if you are supporting your adult children? Because that definitely happens.
Heather Quick:
That becomes a problem, let me tell you. Legally you're not required to. So, if you are saying, "Well, I need this amount of alimony, because of course I have to pay for Johnny's apartment or Sally's car." That’s not going to happen, and you have to say, you're going to have to go without. That can be difficult, because many times, in my experience, the husband says "Well, I'm not paying for that anymore. Go to your mom and she did this, so I'm not paying for it." Those are hard conversations that are going to need to be had.
But the reality is, if you've got a certain amount of the assets in the division, that's really only going to hurt you if you keep paying for things for them. That goes for college too. In most cases, parties are able to amicably work it out, figure out, "Hey, we're going to do this for our kids and we're going to set these things up, let them have X, Y, Z." But sometimes parents aren't able to do that. There are hard conversations with your kids that you have to have.
Julie Morgan:
Yeah. Father says, "No, they need to stand on their own two feet. I'm only giving you alimony for whatever you need."
Heather Quick:
Correct.
Julie Morgan:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). But you mentioned this earlier, as far as keeping things to yourself, this is something between you and your spouse. So, this is where it needs to stay. Don't use your kids as a therapist.
Heather Quick:
Correct. That is not a fair place to put them in that position. Kids love their parent. It's not fair and they're not going to be that objective anyway. They're going to tell you what you want to hear most likely. But think about if they're struggling between you and your husband with hearing too much and you're both oversharing. They're probably really going to opt out and be like, "Guys, I don't want to deal with this. I don't want to talk to either one of you, because I feel like I'm being put in the middle." No one likes to feel that way and be caught between that. You're right, I think sometimes there is a tendency, because, oh, they're grown up, but it's like, you're still always their mom and dad. Even though they are an adult, it's still really it's just a bad idea.
Julie Morgan:
Yeah and it could just get weird. Just weird. Try to keep the emotion out of it. That's difficult. I know we talked about the emotional versus the rational. That is so difficult. It really is, because it's, especially, you think about the fact that you have other members of the family, not just your adult children, you also may have grandkids and you brought this up, birthdays and weddings, "I'm getting married next year. So, you can't bring your girlfriend to the wedding. I'm sorry. It's just not happening. You can bring her, but she won't have a chair." That's, you know? You have all these things that you have to think about. But it is like you said, it's really how it affects them.
Heather Quick:
Yeah.
Julie Morgan:
Okay.
Heather Quick:
Yes, and life goes on and everybody makes it work or they don't make it work. But if you try to have the best intentions, just remember, you have to look at yourself in the mirror at the end of the day. Is that really how you want to behave?
Julie Morgan:
Anything else you want to add on this topic?
Heather Quick:
No, I think we've covered it.
Julie Morgan:
But there are so many other questions that I have. And I'm just looking at the time saying, "Julie, you just don't have time for that." All righty. So, I'll ask them at a different time. Until next time, Heather.
Heather Quick:
There we go. There's always next week, right?
Julie Morgan:
There is always next week. Yeah. Until next time, Heather.
Heather Quick:
Thank you so much.
Julie Morgan:
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