Heather Quick, attorney and owner of Florida Women’s Law Group, discusses when is enough, enough with Anna Durstein. They dive into knowing when it’s time to leave, why women wait so long and when you’re just not happy.
So many women ask me how do they know when it’s time to end their marriage. I wish I could tell them a definite answer but there isn’t one. Surprisingly it isn’t some major blowup that is the deciding factor to leave. There isn’t a big neon sign that flashes and says abort now. In most cases it’s an accumulation of a bunch of little things. For women, deciding to divorce is not an impulse decision. On average, most women have been thinking about it for 4 years.
I'm joined in this episode by Anna Durstein, partner and attorney at Florida Women's Law Group.
We will talk about:
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About our guest, Anna Durstein: Anna M. Durstein is a passionate and resourceful Jacksonville divorce lawyer for Florida Women’s Law Group. Her practice areas include divorce, alimony, timesharing, relocation, domestic violence and paternity. Ms. Durstein is relentless in pursuing the best possible outcome for her clients and works to ensure her client’s needs are being met. She is a strong vindicator of protecting the rights of women and children. We are proud to have Ms. Durstein on our legal team.
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Referenced in Episode - Drew Barrymore Reflects on The Confusing Part of Her Divorce
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"Women Winning Divorce" is a radio show and podcast hosted by Heather Quick, CEO and Owner of Florida Women's Law Group. Each week we focus on different aspects of family law to help guide women through the difficult and emotional legal challenges they are facing. Heather brings over 20 years of law experience that advocates and empowers women to achieve happier and healthier lives. Join Heather each week as she discusses family law issues including divorce, custody, alimony, paternity, narcissism, mediation and more. This program was created to provide tips and insight to women with family law issues. It is not intended to be legal advice because every situation is different. Visit us at https://www.womenwinningdivorce.com/ for more resources. Text us at 904-944-6800 for a copy of Heather's Top 5 Divorce Tips. If you have questions or a topic you would like Heather to cover, email us at marketing@4womenlaw.com
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This podcast, commentary and opinions within, are intended for entertainment and informational purposes only and to give legal advice. Please contact an attorney in your state for legal advice and guidance in relation to your specific needs.
Women Winning Divorce
Episode 48
Enough is Enough with Anna Durstein
Heather Quick:
Welcome to Women Winning Divorce, where we talk about all family law issues and how they impact women. I'm Heather Quick, owner and attorney of Florida Women's Law Group. Today, we are so fortunate to be joined by my fellow attorney and law partner, Anna Durstein. Anna, welcome to the show.
Anna Durstein:
Thank you, Heather. Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited.
Heather Quick:
So, tell us a little bit about yourself. I know you very well, but for our listeners, give them a little insight into who you are and why you do what you do.
Anna Durstein:
Right. Yes, of course. So I've always wanted to do divorce law for-
Heather Quick:
Ever.
Anna Durstein:
For as long as I can remember, I've always wanted to be a divorce attorney specifically. I feel like it's the only field where you can actually see what you're doing to help a client. You can see it from the beginning to the end. So, it's something that I've always wanted to do. I've only focused my entire law career on family law. Even before I became a licensed attorney, I interned with family law offices. I interned with judges. So, this is something that I've always, always wanted to do. Here, I'm a partner and attorney, so I represent clients. I help the other attorneys here too in our office strategize and reach our clients' goals.
Heather Quick:
Well, we are so happy to have you here today, because as we begin this new year with these episodes, we are going to be interviewing other female attorneys. It's going to hopefully provide for great discussion and different insight from different points of view. Today, we are discussing when is enough, enough. So many women ask me, "How do I know when it's time to end my marriage? How do I know that I go forward?" I can't always give them just an easy one answer. So, it's just a common question.
Anna Durstein:
I agree. I get that all the time as well. There really isn't just one answer. There isn't just something that is ... Here it is. It's time. It definitely is a big, big decision, and it comes up a lot.
Heather Quick:
Exactly. Let's start out by talking about when you know it's time to leave. Surprisingly, I have found in my experience it isn't some major blow up that's the deciding factor to leave. There isn't that one sign or that epiphany when you wake up that morning and say, "It's time to go." I think in most cases, it's an accumulation of a lot of little things. We discussed last year, just based on statistics, that on average most women spent about three to four years thinking about it before they really are able to then pull the trigger, so to say, and move forward.
Anna Durstein:
Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense, and I completely agree. I think a lot of women think about divorces for a very long time before they pulled the trigger. However, I do know that whenever they are done with their marriage, they are done, and there is no changing their mind and going back. I feel like once they do take that next step, they always know that it's the right decision, and they move forward with it. A lot of times also, it's harder too to decide if you're going to move forward with it, if your husband is ... He's a good guy. He's a good dad. There's nothing that is ...
They feel like they're not leaving for a valid reason, because they don't love them anymore, or they just don't have anything in common anymore. I feel like it's a lot of guilt that they just don't want to leave because of that. I feel like they are, like you said, they're waiting for that one thing, the big blowout, that this is the moment that I decided I'm no longer going to be married. But, I just don't think that that happens every time.
Heather Quick:
I agree with you 100%, because many circumstances on paper, or certainly always from the outside looking in, because we never really know what's going on with people and with who they are, but it may be, hey, this is not a bad person, right?
Anna Durstein:
Right.
Heather Quick:
So, there is, I think, a belief on women and maybe even men. Oh, my gosh, I'm being so selfish. I'm just not happy and whether or not ... or unfulfilled. Is that a reason for divorce? But, in a lot of ways, I think that can be a very valid reason for divorce. I think women tend to set the bar low as far as what they'll accept. You may start off high, but then you just keep making exceptions and excuses. You don't really want to rock the boat. I think that so much more goes into it, just to say, "Well, I'm not happy." But, then really, how do the two of you interact? What are you teaching your children, per se? Or, what's going on within you as far as when you're maybe even just in a partnership situation, but you really are wanting more of a marriage.
Anna Durstein:
Right, and you're right. I think you hit right on the dot there. I think women, they just don't sometimes trust their decision making abilities. I think that a lot of times, they don't want to break up a family. Like we kind of said, when there isn't a specific reason to do it, I think they feel like they're more concerned about what is everyone else going to think? Look at this guy. Everybody loves my husband. They think he's a wonderful dad. He's a wonderful coach or whatever it may be. So, then they end up putting essentially other people's happiness before their own, because again, it's not just this one thing that is making them want a divorce.
Heather Quick:
Yes, and I think when you talk about that too, women tend to be more pleasers. I think we see that across the board, in a way that they put themselves last. So, they're putting everybody else, and it could be your husband, the extended family, your own children, just what everybody else thinks versus maybe really their own value. I think it comes down too to what do they value within themselves and who they want to show up as. When you're showing up as half in half a relationship, but you're really not doing anything in that relationship, and it's not growing you or yourself, it's really a drain on everyone.
Anna Durstein:
I agree. No, I completely agree. It is. You come into this routine that you're only doing it for somebody else. You can't be happy in something like that, and it's unlikely to change. That's the bigger problem in this. It's unlikely to just change.
Heather Quick:
Right, and I think sometimes, that's what they're looking for. What else can I do in this relationship that will fix it or change it, right? But, yet some things aren't fixable. How many times have you met with women or helped women, and they've tried counseling?
Anna Durstein:
Tons, tons, tons. I feel like almost everybody that has come to me has either tried it or has asked for it in the marriage, and the husband doesn't want to do it. Or, they've tried it, and it just hasn't worked. I've had numerous clients have come to me that the counselors have even probably told them, "You probably just need to ... This isn't just going to work anymore, because it just isn't."
Heather Quick:
Right, and speaking of counseling, because I think that, yeah, if you're only doing one sided counseling, not that there's a downside to that, because you're probably really helping yourself and getting clarity, but that doesn't in and of itself really fix a marriage, does it?
Anna Durstein:
Agreed. No, it doesn't. If both people are not there to do the exact same thing, and the only reason that the other person is there is because they want to not have a divorce being filed against them, they don't want to leave the house, or something just very basic like that, then it's not going to work. You have to have two people really participate and both want the counseling, to both want the counseling to lead to something. Because, you could simply just continue to be unhappy in your marriage, but you're not the same person. You could just change. You change. You grow. Your interests have changed. The kids are gone. You might just not be compatible anymore, and that happens all the time.
Heather Quick:
I think I see that certainly with more often longer marriages, where they're like, "All of a sudden, we were a couple, but yet each on our own path." Then, it almost is, let's say, not that we talked about that one day there's this flashing sign, but all of a sudden, you're like, "Do I even have anything in common with this person anymore?"
Anna Durstein:
Yeah, no, it's true. It is, and a lot of times, like you say, it's just the busy schedules, right? Kids, activities, school, extracurricular, doctors, all of these things that happen, you just forget, why were you married in the first place? Are you with this person? Are you happy? Like you said, you're right, a lot of it does come out once the kids are gone. So, then you realize. You sit back, and you're just like, "What am I doing? Am I actually happy?" Again, there comes the guilt. He's a good dad. He was such a good husband. He provided for the family. Why? That's where the guilt comes in, and then it's very difficult for somebody to then pull the trigger after that.
Heather Quick:
I think so, and a lot of times, what I think happens, because you ... We know obviously when we're meeting with all these clients and women over the years, that clearly, the other person has to know it's not working. It's not working. It's not that you're the only one who knows something's not going right here.
Anna Durstein:
Yeah, and you think that. You think that, but I feel like sometimes, it is a shock to the other side whenever the client of ours decides to actually take that step. Because, again, there wasn't just one thing. It wasn't a big blow up. It was just numerous little things that added up for our client to say, "I'm not happy. I want to be happy." You know what? Their husband deserves to be happy too, I guess. So, it comes to that. When you're in this stagnant relationship part of it, you have to ask yourself, "Are you happy? Are you happy with this person the same way you were happy with them 30 years ago, 20 years ago? Are you still the same happy?" And, you have to remember that. I think people forget, and they just keep going and keep going and just doing life.
Heather Quick:
Yeah, and I know that sometimes there's ... And, it can be so many things, because sometimes it's like you're never here. You're working. You're really married to your career, not the people that are here in your life that you say you're working for. But, you're missing everything. I know that many women, they feel like they're a single mom. I feel like I'm going through everything every day just by myself, yet I want more. Because, we're supposed to be in a relationship, maybe even just conversation or something that helps them through that. I think that sometimes can be a big thing. The other side does tend to be shocked.
Anna Durstein:
Right. Again, it's not one thing. It's something that's happened over time. Over time, there's the loss of intimacy, a loss of friendship. We talked about earlier, a lot of women, they just don't want to rock the boat. They just want to keep it together for the family. They don't want to break the family up. They want to do it for somebody else. In that, you lose the sight of yourself and you lose your own happiness. You don't have that anymore.
Heather Quick:
And, on the reverse, because I know we have both in our career met with women, and they're shocked, because they thought they were checking all the boxes and they were doing all the things that they were supposed to do to be a good wife and in a marriage. Their husbands decided, no, I'm done too.
Anna Durstein:
That's true, and it's the same thing. It goes both ways. Something my clients would say, "Nothing happened. We didn't have a fight. We didn't lose something, nothing. He didn't cheat on me. Neither of one of us cheated on each other. He just doesn't want to be with me anymore, and I don't know why." Sometimes, it's hard. It is very hard to come to terms with that too from both perspectives. It could be very hard to come to terms with it, because everybody wants to look for a reason. Everybody wants to know why, why, why. What is it specifically that happened? Sometimes, there just isn't one, and they might never know one. That's hard too. I definitely understand. That could be very hard to accept.
Heather Quick:
I think so. Within that, our roles as attorneys, but that's why they call us case counselors, especially in the area of family law. But, many times when it is that where our client is the one who is caught off guard initially and really didn't expect it, because they thought things may not have been like they were first married. But, good isn't good enough. Their husband's like, "I don't want to be married to you anymore." Like we talked about, that is of course really difficult. I know I've had that conversation many times over the years as far as, well, don't you deserve better? Really, don't you deserve better, to have somebody who really wants to be with you, wants to continue? As hurtful as this is, you deserve better for that and maybe somebody who really loves you, respects you, and want to be with you. I would say [inaudible 00:14:55] for women who are done, "Hey, your husband deserves better too. You're just going through the motions and faking it."
Anna Durstein:
Yeah, and I agree. It is, at the beginning ... and I don't disagree. I think it is very difficult to come to terms with it at the beginning, but at the end, in my experience at least with my clients, at some point there is something that does click and that there is a realization that it is going to be better, and it's okay that I don't have a specific reason, and that's fine. We had happy years when we did have those happy years, and then going forward, I'm going to have my own happy years. And, they do. They always do.
Heather Quick:
They really do, don't they? So, all right, well, we're going to be back in just a moment to talk about when you're just not happy some more. All right, Anna. So, when you're just not happy, let's talk about that, because I think there's a lot of different people who think, oh, well, you're being selfish. What is happiness? What do you think about that?
Anna Durstein:
I think that you could just simply be unhappy in a marriage. I think that happens all the time. I think we touched base on it a little bit earlier too. You're a different person. Once you get married in your 20s or 30s, and then you have children, and then you're a mother. You're a completely different person than you were when you were at the time that you got married. Then, your children go to college, and then you're a completely different person at that point, because now you have an empty nest than you were when you had the children. It's just things just change. You can just simply be unhappy. It just happens.
Heather Quick:
Which brings me, recently in the news, there was an article about Drew Barrymore who said exactly that, right? The confusing part of her divorce, I think she said nothing went wrong, per se. But, did you read that?
Anna Durstein:
I did, yeah. No, I did, and that's exactly it. She said there wasn't a huge deal, a scandal in the news, somebody cheated. Oh, look at Drew Barrymore we're walking around with some other man or her husband. It was just nothing was wrong. I think she described it as being ... It was just very clean. Nothing was wrong. They just both weren't happy. And, she said she was confused. Because, it is confusing like we talked about. Well, what are you mean, you're just not happy? Why? Again, it doesn't have to be something very specific. It could be a multitude of numerous reasons put together. But, yeah, I did. That was a big one compared to any other divorces you see in the news, right? It was a very different type of read for what's going on in the divorce realm with the celebrities.
Heather Quick:
Absolutely, and I think that I found it to be interesting and so relatable for people, because there wasn't anything, one specific thing. But, they both knew it wasn't working, and they both tried. Then, it was still quite devastating for her afterwards, even though it wasn't a traumatic affair or some kind of criminal thing. She just really had a hard time afterwards, because basically, it is the end of a dream for so many people.
Anna Durstein:
Right, it's true, and it is, right? You get married. You have a dream. You've always dreamt that you were going to have this home, these types of children, where you're going to live, the type of work you're going to do. And, divorce is the end of that. It is. So, even if you are unhappy in your marriage, it doesn't mean that you're happy to be to go through the divorce process. It doesn't equate to that. It's just that once you realize that you're unhappy in your marriage and you start putting yourself first, that's all that is, is you put your happiness first.
It doesn't mean that, again, this person that you're divorcing is the worst person in the world, and something has to be wrong with them. You're just putting yourself first. You're just making yourself happy. Again, even though there is that struggle, I think she did talk about the struggle, but she also talked about how amazing she's doing now and how amazing her co-parenting relationship is with her former husband. Because, that's the thing you should do. You should do it before there is something that probably could blow up and things like that where you could ruin that for your future. It works.
Heather Quick:
And, I think as well that I think when you stay too long, which we are going to get to, resentment builds. Anger builds, and then it's not always as easy and amicable to split, because you're both trying to make it work, but you know it's not. So, then you many times go outside the marriage or then just ignore the family, try to be away as much as possible with work. Really, it's not even putting a bandaid on it. It's just looking the other way, but then those other things then create more havoc eventually on the marriage than divorce.
One of the things that, when you were just talking about it, I think that it's just like when we're on the airplane. When the oxygen mask comes down, you have to put it on yourself first in order to help somebody else. I think that happiness is one word, but I really think it's more about being fulfilled. Because, when we are truly fulfilled in living what should be our purpose in life and living our best self, it really means we have a lot to offer everyone else, right?
Anna Durstein:
Right.
Heather Quick:
When you are fulfilled in your marriage and in that relationship, you have more to give your children. You have more to give your extended family, your community, or your job, your profession. Isn't that what we should all be doing, looking to how do we bring our best selves every day?
Anna Durstein:
Absolutely. No, absolutely. You're right. If you're not being your true self with your partner that you're with, you're in your home with this person every day, how can you be true in all your other aspects of life? Like you said with work, with your kids, with your family, how could you really fully be there for them, if you're not fulfilling yourself and if you're not happy yourself? You just can't.
Heather Quick:
And, I think also it really is, and this has more to do when you have children. When you don't have children, all right, it's just two adults. We know this, that it is going to be more of a business transaction with the divorce. But, within that home, how you operate as a couple doesn't have as lasting impact as it does when you have children. I know so many women tell themselves, "Well, I'm staying together for the kids, right? That's why we're staying married." But, yet what are you showing your children? What do you think? Don't you have more of an obligation just to stay married and be married, or to show your children what a healthy, fulfilling relationship looks like? What do you-
Anna Durstein:
I agree. I completely, completely agree. Children, they're kids. They're kids, but they're smart. They pick up on that. They pick up if mom and dad don't talk, right? They pick up. My client, they're like, "We never fight in front of the kids." And, I'm like, "That doesn't mean that they don't know that something is going on. It doesn't necessarily mean that." Once again, you don't have to have very overt types of acts to not be happy. The kids are smart. They pick up on that. So, they can definitely see whether or not their mom and dad are happy, whether or not their mom take time to talk to each other and laugh together and hug each other or anything just small, as minimal as sitting next to each other on the couch. They notice things like that. The kids, they pick up on that. They know that, and yes, definitely, I feel like absolutely, they owe duty to their kids. Staying together for the kids, it never is the right answer. It never is.
Heather Quick:
It really isn't. It's not, because it doesn't work, right?
Anna Durstein:
No.
Heather Quick:
Everybody ends up suffering, I think. So often, you hear afterwards, not in the beginning of it, but that their children will then share things, whether it's once they're older or later. Yeah, I can't believe it took you this long, or whatever's going on, but kids are perceptive. They're living in the same house as you, so they pick up on it, right?
Anna Durstein:
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. No, I've had clients absolutely in those same exact situations, parents going through a divorce. They're like, "Mommy, I'm so happy you're doing this." Or, I've had cases before divorce even begun. I've had the children come to my clients to say, "Mommy, I think you should get a divorce. Why don't you get a divorce from dad? He's not very nice," or whatever it could be. And, that's just heartbreaking, that children, they see that. You're still in this relationship and you're not leaving because of possibly a fantasy that you might have to help make everybody else happy or thinking that you're doing it for your kids. But, it's not. Children, more often than not ... I've never had a client that I can think of, and I'm thinking now too, that I've had come back to mom and dad and been like, "You guys should've stayed together." Again, it goes back to you do it sooner before you start really hating each other and before you start really, really having a lot of contention between yourselves. Because, then your co-parenting relationship is going to be so much better too.
Heather Quick:
Yeah, and I think also what we talked about, you mentioned earlier, you may have married in your 29s, and even if you're in your 30s, we as humans are meant to evolve and grow and have different interests. When you aren't growing together with your spouse, it doesn't really have to take 20 years. It can take a shorter amount of time, but you also may grow and have new interests and learn new things, and he may just not like you as much anymore either, so doesn't want to spend as much time with you, right?
Anna Durstein:
Right, right, and that's a good question to ask yourself in those types of situations. If you met your husband today, would you be with him? Would you date him? Would you love him? You might love him always, right? That's going to be something. He gave you children. You guys had a life together. You might always love him for the person he was to you at some point, but do you like him? That's a really important question to ask yourself. Do you like him now?
Heather Quick:
Well, and how about this question, do you like who you are now with this person, because ... That takes some self-reflection. I know not everybody likes to ask those questions when they're going through the divorce and looking at their part. But, are you your best self? I think that's a good question.
Anna Durstein:
Very good. Yeah, very good. Again, and it is like you said, self-reflection is very hard, but it's important when you're trying to make a decision on whether or not this is the person for you in this moment of your life. And, it's okay if the answer is no.
Heather Quick:
I think so. I think that at the end of the day, it's really being honest with yourself first, because there are so many coping mechanisms that all of us as humans have that can be very effective. I think we see that often in divorce that really denial as far as what's truly going on can be a nice place to hang out for a while when you're married. Don't you think?
Anna Durstein:
Yeah, absolutely, no, and they do. Because, that's easier. It is. It's just easier, but it's not better.
Heather Quick:
It's easier in the short run, I think. Eventually, it catches up with you, and then when you see that divorce in a marriage that really probably divorce should happened 10 years earlier, there's a lot more animosity, isn't there?
Anna Durstein:
Yeah, always. That's what I was saying earlier too. You wait too long. There is, because then you actually are waiting for that moment where you're looking for something. Then, in that moment, you really, really don't like that person, and there is a reason. Then, now you're really hung up on that reason, and now you have children, and now how are you going to co-parent with somebody that you're divorcing because you absolutely hate them? It absolutely is worse.
Heather Quick:
Yeah, I think so, that within a relationship, relationships are complicated and how to navigate. When you're at that point that you're done, I think that also what happens many times is one person gets to that decision before the other, but they haven't really communicated. So, I think that's where that whole surprise, or when did this happen, that we talked about, it's almost been building up. It's not just that you leave your towels on the floor. That's not the end all, main reason. It could be, but usually, there's a lot more underneath that that does it. We talked, I think we touched on it maybe [inaudible 00:29:15] but it's the communication.
I think at the end of the day, the majority of the relationship, they don't make it, because somewhere along the way, there was just a total break in communication. They either didn't have the skills or the desire to really try to bridge that and figure out, hey, now that we've been ... The way we communicated when we first got married isn't really as effective anymore, because now, we have all these other moving parts in our marriage. People have got to adapt and grow and find new ways to connect and communicate.
Anna Durstein:
Right, and it goes again, would you be with this person today if you met him the same way he is today? Would you be with that person?
Heather Quick:
Anna, after the break, we're going to talk about why women wait so long and what we've learned about that and how to help women maybe thinking about why are they waiting so long. All right, we're back. Now, let's dive in a little bit into why women wait so long, because in the beginning of the show, I mentioned that statistically, a woman thinks about divorce for four years before doing anything. I know listeners may be thinking, why so long? But, I'll tell you before I had done the research on those statistics, I thought it was really 10 years. That was just based on my experience with most women in this practice. It would be talking about how they wish they had done it earlier, and they really kind of knew at one point, but then there was this lag. I know that, and I do believe this. Even as a divorce attorney, I am extremely optimistic, but I believe everybody gets married hoping it's going to last forever, right?
No one gets married thinking they're then going to get divorced, but just most people don't. Even the most amicable divorces are hard. It can be one of the hardest things that you'll go through in your life, because it is the death of a relationship. So, there is that process. Just like what Drew Barrymore said about her divorce, how she had a rough time afterwards, even though she knew it was the right thing. It was very amicable, but then she really struggled afterwards and has come out of it. I think it's helpful that she's talked about that for so many women, because that is something that can definitely happen. It's not really that avoidable. In your experience, Anna, why do women wait so long?
Anna Durstein:
I've found that they think of everything and they'll do everything to avoid it. Again, I think it comes back to a lot of, well, we have to wait, especially the ones with the kids, the ones that I'm talking about. It's, I'm going to wait until after their winter break. I have more time to be able to put paperwork together. Well, now it's the summertime. I want to get through the summer. I want to get through the holidays. It's one thing after another. I think they just put up with a lot of things just to avoid it. I think it's, well, right now, he's traveling all the time, so it's going to be hard. He's not going to be here. It's easy for me, because he's not here actually, and it's fine. I'm okay. So, it keeps going back to them just not putting themselves first. It's just putting everybody else first and not putting their happiness first and avoiding it, just because in the situations where there's nothing so overtly wrong, we'll just avoid it. It's easier.
Heather Quick:
Now, what do you think about this? Because, I think there are certainly examples, women who maybe try to change themselves to be enough for their husband. Well, maybe if I were thinner, we'd go out more. If I cooked better, more adventurous, and it could be everything, funnier, whatever maybe their husband complains about, and/or whatever they think. I think that there is a lot of unrealistic expectations and/or beliefs out there just for everybody. I live it any and all time on my social media, because I find myself just amazed at the pictures and things that people put up there. I think, wow. Everybody's always got hair and makeup, and everybody looks so happy. Really, if you allow it, certainly the statistics and studies will show it can affect you in a negative way.
Because, let's say you're not happy in a relationship. Things just aren't working. Basically, you're just not happy with yourself and who you are in that relationship. I think that would be my perspective, right? Because, it's nobody's job to make you happy. I think many times, we do think that you get married, it is your job. Well, it's really not. It's your job. You're in control of your own happiness. However, you're not your best self with this person. So, that's where a lot of that self-reflection I think has to come from. So, maybe I don't think it's terrible that ... I'm not saying change yourself, but maybe that where you are looking at, well, who am I? And, that's why maybe it takes so long, because you're trying figure out who you are and who you ought to be in this marriage.
Anna Durstein:
And, that's true. Sometimes, it doesn't happen immediately. Some people can still ... Obviously, they do. They still stay in unhappy marriages for a very, very long time before they make that decision. It could be a multitude reasons. Like you said, one of the things you said is that should I be thinner? Should I work out more? Then, I have a client who does start taking care of herself. Then, she realizes that she is happier by doing that. Now, her husband is making comments. "Well, who are you spending time with? You're never here. Now, you do all of this." Now, they have separate interests or something like that. Maybe that is a little bit of a wake up call for somebody.
But, again, once you take care of yourself, you realize also whether or not your spouse, your partner, your person is there for you. Are they supportive of these things? Are they backing you up on your decisions? Or, are they complaining about every single thing that you're doing and not necessarily fighting with you, but are they even being supportive of you as a person as you grow? Are they being supportive?
Heather Quick:
Right, because that's not what they ... We all have expectations, beliefs surrounding the person we married and who they're going to be. Maybe they don't rise to what we thought they were going to be, and they just stay who they were. Or, they do change. Let's say you marry somebody, and they're just a high powered executive. Then, all of a sudden, they wake up one day and say, "You know what? I really hate this job, hate the person this makes me. I want to be a school teacher." That will impact, of course, all areas of your life, time, as well as finances. Many times, you're just not on the same page as your spouse. That's an extreme decision, but that happens. People do make life altering changes in their careers, and then that changes their perspective on life and really affects the whole family.
If your spouse isn't with you on that, that can create a lot of problems, right? Because, now they're like, "Wait, now, I'm married to this person, but this isn't who I thought I was marrying. I thought I was marrying this executive who traveled." You know what? That just brings me into when the pandemic hit a couple years ago. I think that we did see a lot of divorce rates rise. A lot of that was because people had their roles, their life, and their patterns. Well, then of course, everything got disrupted. So, for couples whose marriage functioned very well when one spouse was traveling a lot, that impacted a lot of marriages in a negative way. Because, they're like, "I don't really want to be around you seven days a week. I was feeling two.
Anna Durstein:
Yeah. I agree. That definitely changed for us. We saw a lot of that happening. That goes back to, you've been unhappy for a very long time. That person has been unhappy for a very long time, but they have just dealt with it. They did everything they could to avoid going through the divorce, because it was easy. He's not home. It's fine. It's okay. I can deal with him being home 10 days of the month. It's fine. But, that's a big, big wake up call for those women too. It's that you were never okay. You just did it to avoid it, and it didn't help anything. Because, then at that point, now you're really stuck together in the same household without any sort of division at all whatsoever, because now he's not traveling for his work whenever he was stuck during the pandemic. It didn't help anybody. It really didn't. You cannot avoid it. You cannot keep avoiding something like that. You have to, have to, have to think if you are happy and if this marriage makes you happy.
Heather Quick:
Right, and I think that it is really about recognizing, hey, what components of this marriage are working, and what aren't, and why? Not that there's a person to blame, but something's missing. Then, you have something like the pandemic, which then it just all opens up, and then you're like, "Yeah, this isn't working." Because, any stressor in life, whatever that may be, and we all know they happen all the time, change in stressors of whether it's the economy, your job, your kids, anything that rocks the boat when it's already really on a pretty weak foundation, it just crumbles, because you can't deal with it. You're like, "That's the last thing. That's the one thing. I can't deal with this anymore, because now things have changed too much. I don't want to be with you." Then, that's I think the result of when you wait so long. It does become harder in so many ways.
It's almost as if the reason you're waiting is because you just don't want it to be so hard. You don't want it to be so financially impactful. You don't know what's going to be ahead, right? You just don't. As someone who's divorcing, it's just like when you get married. You haven't been married to this person before. You don't know what to expect. After the divorce, you can have a lot of fears about afterwards. It's that fear of the unknown and that massive change that I think keeps women from taking action. And, they're also looking for reasons. They're looking for a justification that they can tell the moms at the book club or the friends or the coworkers. They want a reason that kind of passes the social test that you're just not an awful, selfish person. Because, that's what society judging may just say, and they don't know what it's like to be married to your husband.
Anna Durstein:
They don't.
Heather Quick:
They don't, just like we never really know what goes on with others. That may be the nicest guy in the world on the neighbor. But, you're not married to him, so you don't know what it is. But, I think we also not ... It kind of takes that pleasing further. We just don't want to look bad, right? We don't want to be judged and talked about badly. We want to be talked about if they're going to say something nice, but doesn't usually go both ways, right?
Anna Durstein:
Yeah, no, and it's true. Making that decision is hard, because then you're the one that filed. Who files first? What difference does it make? Not going into all that legalese, but well, I don't want to be the first one to file. I talked to him. You're making a choice for yourself. You have to think about that. The longer you wait, the worse situations can get. The longer you wait, the older people are, the worse the economy gets. Nobody can predict the future. If everybody would, nobody would get married, because then everybody would think they're going to get a divorced, and we'd have no jobs, right? But, no, at the end of the day, nobody knows the future.
You have to think about now, and I cannot say this enough. Are you happy with yourself? Are you happy with the person you're with? Because, if you're not, you can make a change, and you can be happy. Because, you deserve to be happy, and so does the person you're with, so do your children, so does your family. Because, maybe you're in this type of relationship that he doesn't like your family, and you never see your family. You deserve to be happy. So, you do what makes you happy, not what makes everybody else happy. Because, once you're happy, everybody around you will be happy. I definitely have seen that.
Heather Quick:
I agree with you 100%. Also, I think, like we talked about with the kids, of course they know what's going on, but also, you are teaching them that that's what marriage looks like. I know you heard me say that a million times, but you are. You're showing them that that is a healthy relationship, because that's all you know as children. That is the primary relationship that you know. Of course, then that's what they're learning from, right?
Anna Durstein:
Right, yeah. I don't disagree, absolutely. Again, once a husband hears that he wants to go through a divorce or that the wife wants to proceed with a divorce, they always might want to change. I'll do therapy now and make a bunch of different promises to change too. But, once again, once you internally come with that decision and you make that decision that it's time to move forward with your life and be happy, there really isn't much that's going to stop it. Because, at that point, I know my clients, they have tried everything. I have never had a client where I've met with her, I've spoken to her about her life, and thought, I wish she would've done that. No, they have done it. They've done it. They have tried it. They have searched other options. They have talked to other people. It's just not possible anymore in that time. By that time the woman has come to terms with that, it's impossible to salvage it, I believe too.
Heather Quick:
Well, I agree, and Anna, I thank you so much for being on the show this week. It was so great to have that discussion and get your perspective on all of this. So, I certainly appreciate it, and we look forward to, I'm sure, having you as a guest again. Thank you so much.
Anna Durstein:
Thank you.
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