Heather Quick discusses gaslighting. She explains what it is, where it comes from and why along with gaslighting techniques and what to do if you’re being gaslighted.
"Women Winning Divorce" is a radio show and podcast hosted by Heather Quick, CEO and Owner of Florida Women's Law Group. Each week we focus on different aspects of family law to help guide women through the difficult and emotional legal challenges they are facing. Heather brings over 20 years of law experience that advocates and empowers women to achieve happier and healthier lives. Join Heather each week as she discusses family law issues including divorce, custody, alimony, paternity, narcissism, mediation and more. This program was created to provide tips and insight to women with family law issues. It is not intended to be legal advice because every situation is different. Visit us at https://www.womenwinningdivorce.com/ for more resources. Text us at 904-944-6800 for a copy of Heather's Top 5 Divorce Tips. If you have questions or a topic you would like Heather to cover, email us at marketing@4womenlaw.com
Women Winning Divorce
Episode 37
Understanding Gaslighting
Julie Morgan:
Welcome to Women Winning Divorce with your host, Heather Quick. Heather brings over 20 years of law experience that advocates and empowers women to achieve happier and healthier lives. Each week we provide knowledge and guidance on different aspects of family law to help lead women through the difficult and emotional legal challenges that they are facing. Listen in as she discusses issues including divorce, custody, alimony, paternity, narcissism, mediation, and other family law issues to provide insight on the journey of women winning divorce. Welcome to the show. I'm Julie Morgan and I'm joined by your host, Heather Quick. Heather, I don't even know if I want to start with the pleasantries, because I really want to get into this topic. That would be rude. How you doing, Heather?
Heather Quick:
Oh, I'm doing great. I love it when you're excited about a topic because then the time flies by. I have a feeling this is going to be popular with our listeners as well.
Julie Morgan:
Yeah, I really do. And I mean, without further ado, gaslighting, that is the topic today. First of all, what is this? What does this even mean?
Heather Quick:
Okay, so this is a term that is being used a lot lately, but it's only really beginning to be studied and the impact it has on its victims. So it is a form of psychological manipulation that focuses on creating this self-doubt so that you really begin to just question yourself. When somebody's doing it very effectively, it distorts the reality to make the victim feel as if they're kind of losing their mind and that they think, or feel isn't real. So it sounds really creepy, I know, it is and it does happen.
Julie Morgan:
I'm listening to this and so basically, okay, well, let's say this. So it's basically someone making you feel like, okay, what's really going on is not going on. And they're saying, "Are you sure that's right? Do you really think that that's what I'm doing here? I'm not doing that to you." Is that what this is?
Heather Quick:
Yes, that is it.
Julie Morgan:
So you're messing with someone's mind.
Heather Quick:
Oh, indeed, indeed. It's subtle at first, but continuous and repeatedly done over time and it's wild. It is. I know it just sounds like stuff that happens in movies, but it does happen.
Julie Morgan:
No, I definitely believe that this happens in real life. I do. I believe it because, I mean, when we go back to our show about narcissism, that's the first thing I think of when I think of this term, that that is something that a narcissist would use on someone.
Heather Quick:
Oh, indeed, indeed, yes. I mean, if you're doing this, you're on such a power trip and have got such a huge ego and it's like whatever you have is not enough. You've got to really make them feel like they're losing their mind and be even more dependent on you.
Julie Morgan:
Trying to make me think I'm crazy.
Heather Quick:
Yeah, yeah. And for a lot of us, we don't need anybody making us think we crazy. It's already enough going on in this world, but it's true.
Julie Morgan:
Heather, you took the words right out of my mouth.
Heather Quick:
I guess I'm speaking only for myself, but I'm glad you agreed.
Julie Morgan:
Uh-huh, you speaking for me too. All right, so now, okay, I know there was a movie about this. Am I right?
Heather Quick:
Yes. This may shock people, but it’s a 1944 movie entitled “Gaslight” with Ingrid Bergman. Basically in the movie, the husband systematically tried to make his wife think she's crazy and he lies to her about her behavior and tells her that what she thinks is happening isn't. The reason its titled “Gaslight” is because he dims the gas lights in the house or has them flicker and tell her that's not happening.
Julie Morgan:
That is just... Okay, you know what's interesting about this, so this is from a 1944 movie, everything old is new again. Just like bell bottoms will come back, things like this will keep coming back around. I know that was kind of to making light of it, but it's true. You would think since we're hearing about this so much now that this is something new, but it's not.
Heather Quick:
No, it's not. Recently there have been a few more studies on it. I think there needs to be, there's just such an opportunity to study and educate judges, lawyers and people on human behavior. The psychology and things that really are specific to individuals in a romantic relationship and married to one another that create this bond together. But then you stay with somebody because of that and so you could end up in this situation.
Julie Morgan:
So I wonder which sex, which I already know the answer to this because it's pretty obvious, which sex uses this against their partner the most?
Heather Quick:
The research has shown that it's typically a man that gaslights a woman. They use female stereotypes to manipulate their partners, such as women are irrational, hysterical, emotional and unreasonable. That is the standard. Everybody says that, oh, that's the way women are. So they kind of fall back on that while they're trying to distort their reality.
Julie Morgan:
Wow. So, "No, I'm not doing that to her. It's just that time of the month."
Heather Quick:
Oh my gosh, yes. I know, I know, I know. It's always our hormones.
Julie Morgan:
As if we are the only ones that have hormones, right? Oh my, I'm going to try not to get too emotional. I tell you. So, okay, how can men target a woman in this way? What are some of the things about a woman that they'll target to make them susceptible to this?
Heather Quick:
Well, their appearance and sexuality can be a target of gaslighting. You get dressed up and then they try to turn the situation around that you're trying to get the attention of another man and accuse the woman of cheating with random people or multiple different conversations and distorting what actually happened. So that is part of it. It really comes down to manipulation and you're isolating them. In order for, I think, gaslighting to really be effective and work, you have to create that isolation because other people around are going to be, "Yes, that light is flickering." So that really kind of comes in conjunction with it is that isolation.
Julie Morgan:
Okay. I didn't even think about that. That's true. Because the other people around can actually confirm what's going on and make sure that you know that you're not going crazy.
Heather Quick:
Correct.
Julie Morgan:
And I wonder what drives someone to do this? What drives someone to say that, "I want to manipulate another person?" And I asked this question before with narcissism and again we keep going back to that. If you want to listen to that show, it's a good one. Actually it was like two or three weeks and they were just awesome. So you could go to our website, womenwinningdivorce.com, and subscribe, download and listen. But it just makes me think why? What makes you feel like you are so special that you get to manipulate me?
Heather Quick:
Power and control. I mean, again, it's just that imbalance of power, abuser and a victim, and it's just psychological abuse, really, is exactly what this is. And it's somebody who's insecure. It's a bully. They don't like to be threatened or accused of being wrong or confronted. Therefore, they begin to do this, would be my best guess and what I've learned from the research.
Julie Morgan:
I wonder, whenever this type of person goes before a judge, let's say, in a divorce situation, because obviously this is the topic, women winning divorce. I wonder if the judge recognizes their behavior almost immediately because they've seen it before?
Heather Quick:
Oh no, they don't. That's why I was saying judges need to be educated. They're usually very manipulative and charming, similar to our narcissist discussions that we've had. So it can be hard. It can be hard to show what's gone on, and to what end, what does that get you is another question. It's more important that you recognize it and get out. That tends to be the most important.
Julie Morgan:
That is true. Because they could put up this wall, they could put on this face that they are just the most wonderful person in front of a judge because you're not there sitting there in extensive period of time. And so they could fool someone. But yeah, it is important that you realize what's going on.
Heather Quick:
That's the biggest thing because that's the hardest part. You can't see it.
Julie Morgan:
So it may take someone else to help you, but I wonder how you get that help, especially if they're trying to isolate you in order to manipulate you. You know what I mean?
Heather Quick:
It's just taking that first step. A good friend, somebody obviously you trust, a friend or a therapist. You have to get to somebody to say, this is what's happening. Am I crazy or is this really happening? An objective person to listen to that.
Julie Morgan:
That goes back to the fact that we should probably check on our friends. Even the-
Heather Quick:
Yeah. Because you never really know what's going on, like you said.
Julie Morgan:
Yeah. Even the ones that you feel they're strong and oh, they're fine, but you just never know.
Heather Quick:
It's true, you don't.
Julie Morgan:
Yeah. There was an article that I was reading about this recently. And I was trying to find that article, I believe it was on another news website. And it talked about how social media also plays a role in gaslighting.
Heather Quick:
Well, that's interesting. But yeah, I mean, you can make social media completely, I don't think it really is reality. That's the whole point. It's this whole distortion of what you want everybody to see.
Julie Morgan:
Yes, I've always said that. Don't think... It's not real. Anyway. That's a whole other topic, Heather.
Heather Quick:
I know, I know.
Julie Morgan:
So let's talk about, let's get into some of the techniques of gaslighting.
Heather Quick:
Alrighty. Well, okay, so what the gaslighters tend to do is all the same behaviors, to confuse, undermine, and isolate their victim. Little things, but they do it over and over, like always leaving the TV on. Then they're like, “why did you leave the TV on all day?” They get mad at you because they are totally buying that reality that you did this or that, or like you said with the lights, or just overall behaviors. It just confuses you. Or they're like, "Why are you acting so angry and why did you scream at me earlier?" And you are thinking, "We just had a conversation. I don't remember screaming. Was I screaming?" Something like that. But it's again and again and again and to the point where you really do begin to question yourself and what's going on.
Julie Morgan:
But that's a good tip actually for anyone listening to this and they've possibly been victims of this. That's a good tip for them to understand that if they're using the same thing over and over and you have an inkling of a feeling that they're trying to make you think you're crazy but you're not, that's a good tip for them to remember.
Heather Quick:
Oh, I think so. That's why, like you said... Problem is if you're isolated, you're isolated and you're not maybe aware too much, but right. You really need someone in there to say, "This is going on and it's not normal and it's not you."
Julie Morgan:
So maybe if someone is listening to this because your friend may not have access to listen to this podcast and you've possibly heard them say certain things that you can determine that this is something they're a victim of, maybe help them out.
Heather Quick:
I think so, for sure. Yes.
Julie Morgan:
This is such a sad situation. It really is. I keep going back to the narcissism. I said the same thing with that. That is a sad situation to be in because you don't know that you're actually in it.
Heather Quick:
Yeah, I would agree with you.
Julie Morgan:
And the question then becomes, what do you do? What do you do? So you need that support system. So also, as with a narcissist, really only their perspective matters and only their version of events really matters. And that's what they try to pull people into. And the same thing with gaslighting. That's another technique.
Heather Quick:
They're really master manipulators because that's what it is. They're gaining control over you through this manipulation. It's really difficult to spot. If anybody's in this situation, I think once they are out of it and look back and think how did this happen? However, it is subtle and it's just insidious the way it just kind of, they work their way in and they are domineering, but yet they show and they make you believe that they are kind, generous, intelligent, and trustworthy. They really use subtlety to their advantage. They're undermining their victims in a way that just is not obvious. It really isn't. It doesn't appear on its face as threatening. However, the continual manipulation and these behaviors, these women begin to just question everything they know to be true. When they do it in a really good job like that.
Julie Morgan:
Wow. What an actor. You're listening to Women Winning Divorce with Heather Quick, owner and attorney of Florida Women's Law Group. We're going to take a quick break here and when we return we'll talk more about gaslighting techniques. Stay with us.
Welcome back to Women Winning Divorce with Heather Quick, owner and attorney of Florida Women's Law Group. Heather, gaslighting. Gaslighting techniques. Another thing I was thinking about from this article that I read before is that they don't want to talk to you. Well, they don't want to listen to you.
Heather Quick:
Correct. Or they do, but, well, they're not listening. They let you talk. But then it just keeps coming back to their distorting your reality. So that's their main thing, overriding your reality. They're trying to convince you that your words are not what is truly happening.
Julie Morgan:
And that just makes someone feel so unimportant.
Heather Quick:
I read in another article that they said, if the gaslighter had a mantra, it would be if you repeat a lie often enough it becomes true.
Julie Morgan:
Oh wow, that's a good one.
Heather Quick:
That's really what they do. And they're pretty committed to this. They can just stick with the lie, the distortion. So much so that I think part of the women who are susceptible, eventually they're like, he's so sure, he's so confident, and he doesn't change his story.
Julie Morgan:
And we've talked about on this show different types of abuse. We've talked about financial abuse, we've talked about physical abuse, but this is a covert type of emotional abuse.
Heather Quick:
Oh, indeed. Indeed. Because they're really minimizing your emotions, your perception of what is going on to make you then feel insecure as far as your reality, your emotions don't count because they're really not listening to your opinion, what you are saying. They just keep on with their story.
Julie Morgan:
Wow. And also another way, another technique is they rewrite history. And I mean, really that's a nice way of putting this really.
Heather Quick:
Right. Because they say, that didn't happen. Or they will act like they never said or did things that you know they did. They may also say you didn't do things that you know you did. But they are so confident, they're just telling you that this is the way it is and to make you question yourself. Part of that too, let's think about this rewriting history. They are going to, because the isolation's a big thing, that without the isolation you're going to have people say, no, this is not real. Part of that is him saying, your friends are crazy. That friend is not good for you, she's unreliable, continuing to separate you. I think that is something that happens over time. I'm the only one you can count on. Remember, they didn't show up, you can't trust them, your parents don't love you. Look at what they've done. It's again and again and again. And trying to stick with that mantra with you, you can't trust anyone but them.
Julie Morgan:
When you were talking, I was already thinking that this rewriting history, this is a way to discredit you, but it's also a way to discredit your friends as well. Friends and family.
Heather Quick:
Oh, indeed. Right. Because they do want the relationship. They want you there living in the reality that they've created. One of the other things on the tactic, something that I had read in some of the research is that they're really trying to make things easier for themselves and that this need, whether it's conscious or unconscious, is just to control, and to control their surroundings, control you. But they want everything there on their terms. Sometimes they aren't consciously devising these evil things. It's just the way they operate. They probably have a distorted view of reality as well. But they are calling you crazy, irrational because they just don't want to deal with it. They want you to accept the reality as they see it.
Julie Morgan:
And instead of that being you, as far as that is your description or description of you, that's really a description of them.
Heather Quick:
Yes, yes. But yeah, I mean, it's fascinating. I think that the more you read about it, that it does seem weird. It does seem like things that we would just see in movies and in books, but it is real.
Julie Morgan:
And as we talk about this, I wonder, we're of course talking about a relationship in reference to divorce and a husband and a wife, but also think about this in other types of relationships as well. So if you're listening to this and you're not in a relationship where you're getting a divorce or you're thinking about it, but you recognize this behavior in another type of relationship that you may have, I mean, this can really spill over into other things as well.
Heather Quick:
It can. What I've learned in looking at this and researching this is it's often fueled by sexism, which we talked about in the first segment. That's where you're going to see it. There was a paper, I think it was a research paper published in 2014, and the author was talking about a female grad student who discovers that the male grad students have made a list ranking their female peers by attractiveness. When she says, this is really inappropriate, she's told that she's overly sensitive and policing innocent conversations against these male friends and is she really that insecure about her ranking on this list? What just happened there? In that paper, they say you're being oversensitive. That's where I think it's really interesting to understand that this is definitely fueled by sexism and men. And you could experience this in the workplace.
Julie Morgan:
See, you can say that, I can't say experienced this in the workplace, but I am going to back it up. But that's exactly where I was thinking about this happening in the workplace.
Heather Quick:
I mean when you look at that, that's in school, that is based on school. It could be your school, it could be in so many different situations that you really would not even expect, because we started talking about this in romantic relationships. But I think there is a lot of that when we think about conversations between men and women, it kind of goes there often. That is a basis of a lot of this gaslighting is to just say, no, that's not the reality. I think that's interesting. I mean, maybe for certainly any other topics, but it's an interesting way to look at that, for sure.
Julie Morgan:
It definitely is. Because otherwise we would be saying that, "Oh, it only happens with you." But that person's behavior, the way they act, who they are, it spills over into everything they do.
Heather Quick:
I think a lot of it is common. I think it's helpful, just like with so many things, if we, as women, are educating ourselves. Just because we express a point of view and somebody discounts it, that doesn't mean we're wrong. It just means they're unwilling to see maybe a different perspective. We are totally getting off the topic of relationships and divorce. But it's the same behavior and I think it does kind of bleed over into sexual harassment type cases.
Julie Morgan:
And I think the most important thing here is really to be able to identify this behavior. So if it does spill over into those other things, you're able to identify it on that level and also in your romantic relationships as well.
Heather Quick:
Absolutely.
Julie Morgan:
Now, one of the things you said is having proof, or when you call them out or show proof that they're wrong and they're trying to make you think that you're crazy and irrational, they try to deflect and distract you with something else. Or no, we haven't gotten to that part. That's me saying that. But I know, look, and Heather, we got to work together. I know you laughing at me, like, "Julie, what you're talking about?" But I know that is an aspect of it or a technique that they use.
Heather Quick:
Well, right, because they just disagree with you so much so that you begin to wonder, " I thought I saw that picture of you with that girl on social media. No, I thought it was..." "No, you didn't. That wasn't me. That really wasn't what you thought." Again, just basically lying but very confidently so that you're really not even sure.
Julie Morgan:
Or they may say that they did this because it was something that you did.
Heather Quick:
Turning it around, again, deflecting and distracting you and just kind of now it's your behavior that created this or you are being irrational or hysterical. So then you think wait a minute, because then they do it over and over and very consistently.
Julie Morgan:
But what if they say, "But I love you. Why would I do something like that?"
Heather Quick:
Well, I know because they're. They probably do, but they love you also in this particular setting and they love you as long as you agree. Again, like I said earlier, make their life easier and don't express your own emotions or point of view.
Julie Morgan:
Oh, Heather, this made me think of something else.
Heather Quick:
Tell me.
Julie Morgan:
Would they say that, "I'm doing this because I love you."
Heather Quick:
Oh yes, "Because I'm here for you. Maybe you are being irrational, emotional, but I do love you and you can trust me. I'm the only one you can trust."
Julie Morgan:
Now, that is really messed up because that really affects the way you look at love.
Heather Quick:
Yes, again, it's the imbalance of power. Maybe that is what this does is it creates an imbalance of power and creates your need to be with this person because they're the only one you can trust. They're the only ones that can put up with my irrational behavior. That is part of it, creating more of a reliance on them, not an equal relationship.
Julie Morgan:
And then you feel like, "Well, he loves me so I'm going to stay because he's doing this because he loves me and I just want to be loved."
Heather Quick:
Exactly.
Julie Morgan:
That's manipulation on another level. I mean, is there a word that goes above that? Because it bothers me because it really makes you think something that is just not right, it's just not true because that's not what love is.
Heather Quick:
Yes. Many people haven't experienced something that is more on an equality. I think that certain people are attracted to each other for certain traits and you're wanting to be with somebody who's strong and who you feel makes you feel safe. That's a very normal thing for women to feel in a relationship. But they take this then to just the extreme. Because it is this continual pattern in creating this imbalance of power and this true need on this person emotionally, that's the way it ends up. Then they're in this abusive relationship, because it's psychologically abusive and it just comes down to power, so much power. Typically, you will see this accompanied in relationships that have other forms of abuse, is it domestic violence or the financial abuse. It usually is not really going to be all alone. You're going to see there's going to be other things that are going to be a part of it.
Julie Morgan:
We're at the end of this particular segment, but I just thought about something. You went to, and I know we've used this before, Target. I'm sorry, I just like the place. "So you went to Target and you spent a hundred and something dollars." "I haven't been outside the house in two days." "What do you mean? I was just there. That's what you did." And then you start to believe, "Well, maybe I did go to Target because I go so much and I like the place."
Heather Quick:
Little seeds like that again and again and again.
Julie Morgan:
And that right there, that goes hand in hand with the financial abuse that we talked about because they're watching you, they're watching your transactions and now this is a form of emotional... Oh, we have so many places to go with this.
You're listening to Women Winning Divorce with Heather Quick, owner and attorney of Florida Women's Law Group. When we return, we're going to talk more about gaslighting and what to do if you're in this situation. Stay with us.
Welcome back to Women Winning Divorce with Heather Quick, owner and attorney of Florida Women's Law Group. Heather, just before we went to break, we were talking about how if you're in other situations dealing with abuse as far as financial abuse or physical abuse, this could show up in those situations.
Heather Quick:
Absolutely. It's very likely going to be part of that whole dysfunction because it's so related to power and control. Another thing that happens is that they really are confusing you on purpose. It is common, the research shows, they'll also use this, telling you that the authorities are watching, maybe really thinking that there's something going on. That is really where it does cross the line. I have seen this happen; it's been quite some time. But there was another article I read and it was talking about the susceptibility of these women potentially being put in a mental health system, maybe where they're calling the police on you. That gets to where it gets really bad, but that can happen because they're telling other people that you're unstable.
Julie Morgan:
Oh wow, that's true. And that right there, that's emotional abuse along with gaslighting, which is emotional abuse. So you're dealing with different forms of emotional abuse at that point.
Heather Quick:
Yes. There's just so much of the confusion that they're creating with flipping the stories and making you feel crazy, calling you crazy, confusing you. They're blaming you for things that you maybe didn't even do and denying events and really just creating this whole kind of feeling of like you're in the twilight zone and you're just not sure what's going on. That is part of what then sets them up many times and they'll call the police or say something's going on, you're going to harm yourself. At that point your reality has become so distorted, but you have lost so much of your own power.
Julie Morgan:
Oh wow. Oh, this is so sad. And another thing I thought about, going back to how it could relate to physical abuse, let's say you have a bruise and they say, "Well, I don't know what you're talking about. I didn't hurt you. You know you're clumsy. You ran into the refrigerator," or whatever. And then you're thinking, "Well, I am clumsy, so maybe did I run into the refrigerator or did I hit my leg on the coffee table?" But they're actually the one that's abusing you.
Heather Quick:
Right. They're so bold as to say, let's say if the police were involved, they will say to you, "You know I didn't do that. Remember you tripped on the coffee table? Did you black out again?" Or say again, just making up stuff. But in such a way and so confident and you've already really become insecure and unsure of yourself that really makes you think you've got a problem.
Julie Morgan:
This is something that I know people are digging into a little deeper. We are seeing so many more articles written about this by people with actual degrees in mental health. And it makes me think, I wonder if the police, if they understand that if they go to a house and they see this situation that this could be what's going on. I wonder if they're understanding this as well.
Heather Quick:
I don't know. I would think as a whole that people believe their stereotypes, they go into situations and they're going to go with that. That's where you default back. It's going to take a pretty well educated, emotionally intelligent law enforcement officer to see a scene in such a way and ask the right questions and make sure people get separated. There certainly is more awareness and training on domestic situations now than maybe 20 years ago, but I think there's still a long way to go.
Julie Morgan:
October is domestic violence awareness month and just something that I just thought about because these two things, they definitely can go hand in hand.
Heather Quick:
Yes, they can. That's why isolation is so dangerous and that the importance of staying in contact with friends and family. If you don't have anybody, you need to go find somebody. If you have any friends that have just completely dropped out of contact and let's think about this world for the past couple years. We've had imposed isolation on so many people and it's time to think, "Okay, where is that person?" Reach out to people in an effort to, nobody ever knows what's going on. And so, you think about we had all these things that imposed that isolation and if maybe this was going on to some extent, you just don't have contact and you could have really lost touch with so many people and it's getting worse and you don't know who to tell or how to take that first step.
Julie Morgan:
So during these past couple of years, this could really have snowballed for that person who may have been dealing with it. They go to work and then they come home and they deal with it. But then they have that reprieve that work brought them, but then work said, "Stay home." So then you probably have to deal with it or possibly have to deal with it even more.
Heather Quick:
Correct, correct. It's sad because it is something that women predominantly are the victim of and they don't really know what to do because they feel confused and powerless as part of it and isolated, which then all that affects your mental health, and it then really puts you at risk. Obviously if you can tell somebody. Keeping a journal can be very helpful. I know that seems odd, but it can help you take back control because you're writing and you're at least trying to document that and it may allow you to feel less confused and take back some control.
Julie Morgan:
That is a good idea. And then possibly if someone is out there that's reaching out to you and you allow them to read your journal, they can help you see the things that happened and help you to connect the dots.
Heather Quick:
It can. You just need one person to be on your side and help you see your situation and gain some perspective. That could be, yes, we've had a change in our world and that isolation, however it has opened up so many more options for therapy online and connection with somebody virtually that that might be an easier first step that could really help you.
Julie Morgan:
Oh, that is a good idea. Because let's say you're someone you don't want to tell friends or family because it's embarrassing, right? But you can tell someone or speak to someone virtually and that'll help. I like that.
Heather Quick:
That really is the first step to regaining some control and self-esteem, and understanding of what's going on.
Julie Morgan:
Because when someone tries to make you feel like you're crazy, you're overreacting, you're too emotional, too hysterical, that type of thing, that really does take a hit at your self-esteem.
Heather Quick:
It does. It does make you wonder is anybody even going to believe me? I think that's what really, because you're doubting yourself for sure.
Julie Morgan:
Another thing I thought about is what if someone really does have mental health issues and then they're going through this and it may be documented mental health issues and then they have to deal with someone that's gaslighting them. Oh, that could be another situation.
Heather Quick:
Well, yeah, because you're going to be more susceptible and it's going to impact you and likely the result is going to be increased anxiety or depression. Definitely just like within other domestic violence type situations. So yeah, it most definitely will affect you in your mental health. Now, that is why many reasons for seeking some kind of therapy because that can help you because it is psychological abuse, just like we talked about.
Julie Morgan:
And so the person, the mental health professional, that person that can help you, if you are divulging this information, if you're telling them and being honest and vulnerable with them, as you should be, they can get you into hopefully a better situation or direct you into a better situation faster if you are taking advantage of that mental health [inaudible 00:44:51].
Heather Quick:
Well, and it's true because what you want is a safe place, not being put somewhere by your husband that he's controlling the situation. So yes, it's important that you definitely seek out some kind of help, something to begin the process.
Julie Morgan:
Is this something that, let's say I come into your office, I give you some scenarios, some situations that I've been going through with my husband, is this something that someone at your office, can they direct me to a mental health professional?
Heather Quick:
Oh, absolutely. We have a wonderful group of mental health professionals that we refer to frequently.
Julie Morgan:
That's good. Because you know that whenever you go to try to get out of this situation in terms of a divorce, there's also another level of help there, another level of assistance to get you where you need to be.
Heather Quick:
Yes. Because that's going to be so important. Your self-esteem has been so decreased. You have been isolated. Anyone in this situation is really going to need a lot of work to build themselves back up and support to build themselves back up.
Julie Morgan:
I'm not asking you to tell me if you've seen this situation before, of course, Heather. I know there are certain things that you can't tell me. But when serious issues like this come up, do you just want to say, "Leave, stop, don't go back." I mean, I don't know, I just feel like I would probably cross the line and say, "Please, I'm going to let you stay here." But I know you can't get emotionally involved like that. But I feel like I would want to. Does that make sense?
Heather Quick:
Oh, yes it does. And you know what? If and when we're able to meet with a woman and talk about this, the one thing that we can provide is certainly some perspective from an objective point of view. Usually, you hear enough within that meeting to tell them, you are not crazy and this is not normal. If you want to protect yourself and get better, you will have to remove yourself from that situation. May not be right now but understanding that that's going to have to happen hopefully gives them the strength to recognize, I am not going crazy, this is not normal. In order to change it, I'm going to have to stand up for myself.
Julie Morgan:
And last thing that I thought about is, if they hear it from you, from one of the attorneys there, you're someone, you don't know them, you don't really owe anyone anything, but they're objective. They can see this. And they should be able to say, "Wow, if they're able to see this and I've told them my story, then there has to be something there."
Heather Quick:
That's right. Maybe just that one time and then somebody else and then you can begin. Because this didn't happen overnight. It built up over time. Therefore most people aren't going to just automatically come out of it. If you've been in this relationship and this kind of abuse for years, it's not like just tomorrow you're going to be able to flip the switch and be done. It's going to take you some time to heal and build back up and that's okay. But I think you have to recognize that, that this is seriously affected you emotionally, psychologically, and probably physically.
Julie Morgan:
Wow. Anything else you want to add on this topic?
Heather Quick:
There's probably so much, but I think that we've given enough overview, I hope, and not to be depressing or negative to anybody, but just bring light of the subject because it's the things that we don't talk about that we don't work to fix because we're afraid to even bring it up. And I just hope that for anyone in this situation, if they're listening, that they will reach out for us to help them. Or if you know somebody that may be in a situation, now you know there are resources and you can help her remove herself from that situation by calling us at Florida Women's Law Group.
Julie Morgan:
That is so important. Until next time, Heather.
Heather Quick:
Yes, Julie, thank you so much, as always.
Julie Morgan:
Thank you for listening to Women Winning Divorce. We hope you found information to help you navigate your divorce. If you like our show, please take the time to subscribe and provide a five star review. If you need more information, please visit our website at womenwinningdivorce.com where you will find previous episodes and other helpful content. Join us next week as we continue our journey of women winning divorce.