Heather Quick discusses the top 6 reason for divorce with Katherine Miller. They dive into each reason and explain how it can cause a marriage to end.
It is a well-known statistic that nearly 50% of marriages end in divorce. Marriages ebb and flow, go through rough patches, tragedy and tough times. But why are people divorcing? Couples divorce for all sorts of reasons and in most cases, it is more than one. In our history of practicing family law, we have seen a few common reasons for divorce.
In this episode, Heather is joined by Katherine Miller, a family law attorney and owner of Miller Law Group in New York. She’s practiced collaborative family law for over 24 years and is the host of her podcast, The Divorce Dialogues.
You may recognize some of these problems in your own marriage and knowing that they can likely lead to divorce can help you try to fix it.
“Taking the high road means focusing on what’s important to you, not fighting for fighting sake.” - Katherine Miller
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About Our Guest: Katherine Miller is phenomenally, well-rounded attorney, who has practiced collaborative family law for over 24 years. Katherine and her team dive deep into the emotional complexity of divorce and other family law disputes to help people find practical, appropriate solutions to divorce and separation, trusts and estates and small business disputes. Her specialties include collaborative divorce, divorce, mediation, collaborative law practice, mediation of estate and probate issues.
Social media channel links:
Podcast channel: www.divorcedialogues.com
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/katherine.e.miller1
Twitter: https://twitter.com/MillerLaw_NY LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kemiller1/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/millerlaw_ny
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@millerlawgroup8204
Official website:https://miller-law.com/
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Mentioned in this episode: Tony Robbins "Awaken the Giant Within" https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001EM101Q/thbosh-20/
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"Women Winning Divorce" is a radio show and podcast hosted by Heather Quick, CEO and Owner of Florida Women's Law Group. Each week we focus on different aspects of family law to help guide women through the difficult and emotional legal challenges they are facing. Heather brings over 20 years of law experience that advocates and empowers women to achieve happier and healthier lives. Join Heather each week as she discusses family law issues including divorce, custody, alimony, paternity, narcissism, mediation and more. This program was created to provide tips and insight to women with family law issues. It is not intended to be legal advice because every situation is different.
Visit us at https://www.womenwinningdivorce.com/ for more resources. Text us at 904-944-6800 for a copy of Heather's Top 5 Divorce Tips. If you have questions or a topic you would like Heather to cover, email us at marketing@4womenlaw.com
If you would like more information or resources, please subscribe below:
Women Winning Divorce podcast series https://www.womenwinningdivorce.com/
Women Winning Divorce Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/WomenWinningDivorce Florida Women’s Law Group https://www.floridawomenslawgroup.com/
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This program was created to provide tips and insight to women with family law issues. It is not intended to be legal advice because every situation is different. on to your specific needs.
Women Winning Divorce
Episode 49
Top Reasons for Divorce with Katherine Miller
Welcome to Women Winning Divorce with your host, Heather Quick. Heather brings over 20 years of law experience that advocates and empowers women to achieve happier and healthier lives. Each week we provide knowledge and guidance on different aspects of family law, to help lead women through the difficult and emotional legal challenges that they are facing. Listen in as she discusses issues including divorce, custody, alimony, paternity, narcissism, mediation, and other family law issues, to provide insight on the journey of women winning divorce.
Heather Quick:
Welcome to Women Winning Divorce. Each week we discuss family law issues with some of the top female divorce attorneys around the country. I'm Heather Quick, owner and attorney of Florida Women's Law Group.
Today, we have the honor of being joined by Katherine Miller, top family law attorney and owner of Miller Law Group in New York. She's practiced collaborative family law for over 24 years and is the host of her own podcast, The Divorce Dialogues. Welcome to the show, Katherine.
Katherine Miller:
Thanks for having me, Heather. I'm really happy to be here.
Heather Quick:
Awesome. Well, before we get started, I'd love to hear a little bit about really who you are and why you do what you do.
Katherine Miller:
Well, I went to law school because I was interested in justice, and I figured out in the orientation week that that is not what law school was going to be about. And I come from a family of therapists and I've always been interested in the intersection of the law, where it meets the family. And to me, that meant working in the family law. And I got a job after law school working in a family law firm and I was in court a lot. In fact, I practiced in front of Judge Judy a lot when she was sitting on the bench. And so-
Heather Quick:
Oh my God, that is such a fascinating thing. I'm going to make sure I note that down. I finally met somebody who actually practiced in front of Judge Judy.
Katherine Miller:
Yeah, but it gives you a sense of the tenor of the kinds of cases and what my courtroom experience was like. And so I looked around for something that would help my clients and I took a mediation training a couple of years after I started working and I thought it was really interesting and I started to try to integrate those mediative ideas of settling based on what was important to the people rather than maybe the laws and focusing on their interests and what motivated them. In every single case, I ran into the same problem. And that problem was the other lawyer. It wasn't that they were bad lawyers or bad people, they were also trying to help settle the case. We just couldn't get on the same page, Heather, about what criteria we were going to use to help the families resolve these conflicts.
It's quite complicated as you know there's a lot that goes into a divorce, a lot of different facets. I struggled in this way for 10 years, got a lot more litigation experience, did some mediations, and then about 10 years later I got divorced myself. In that experience, we were unable to mediate because my husband felt that as a non-lawyer, he was a step behind. We ended up settling in a very collaborative way, even though it was really quite high conflict. After that experience I thought, you know what? I can't do this anymore and I don't think I can be a lawyer anymore. I thought I quit my job and I looked around for something else to do with my life and I took another mediation training, I got remarried, I moved, a bunch of things happened in my life while I looked for what I was going to do now that I was a grownup and being a lawyer wasn't going to work for me.
A friend of mine said, "Come take this collaborative law training." I said, "Come on, how's it going to be any different? Remember 10 years, same problem. Every case, other lawyer, it's just a bunch of lawyers sitting around trying to settle the case." And she said, "Oh, come in." I didn't have anything better to do, Heather. So I went and within 15 minutes it felt like I'd come home. This was the way I'd been trying to work my entire career. That's what inspired me to form my own law practice and to help people try to find resolutions. It's not always possible, but it often is to find a resolution that works for them based on their own personal criteria, help disentangle and help calm down some of that conflict that comes up so that we can find solutions that really work for people.
Heather Quick:
Well, Katherine, that's so fascinating and really admirable because it's not easy at all to bring down the level. Now, I'm not one to instigate a lot of it, however, I have been known to be extremely adversarial and not particularly cooperative or collaborative in my litigation history. But I think that there are some cases that just have to go one way, but then the majority of cases, given that opportunity to see it from a bigger picture, benefits our clients in a lot of ways when we can get to that point. For sure.
Katherine Miller:
I think that's true, and I think that you have to think about it. I don't know how many cases settle percentage wise in your state, but in my state it's 97, 97% of divorces in New York settled before a judge makes a decision after a trial. Nationwide the statistic is 95%. That's a huge... If you thought you had a 95% chance of winning the lottery, wouldn't you buy all the lottery tickets you possibly could. Makes a lot of sense. If you think about the process as a negotiation rather than a litigation and litigation being kind of like a negotiation tactic, then that's a way to think about how it is that we're going to get to a result that works for people. Another thing, Heather, that I think is really important is that if our clients, our parents and they have children together, then they're going to have to continue that relationship for the rest of their lives.
That is something I think that they really care about and that's really important to them. Sometimes maybe they lose sight of that because they're so angry or they're so hurt, they're so afraid that they get really aggravated and angry and sometimes it's really hard to see those common interests and we all know they're there. What I think is that if we can help them, I think taking the high road puts you in a stronger negotiation position than taking the low road. But sometimes you have to litigate. We litigate sometimes some people require the discipline of the court. Some people require the process and the protections that the court puts in place. Other people require different kinds of protections that we can put into place in a consensual dispute resolution process.
Heather Quick:
I agree. I think many times that some people benefit from the formality and the structure in a courtroom and now in this for particular individuals, now we represent women only of course. I know that that's not your prejudice. You represent men and women. But many times from our perspective early on in the case, sometimes there's a necessity to have some court rulings on things. It really helps both parties see one, hey, this is the person, the decision maker. If you're unable to come to terms, whether it goes in your favor or not, you see how they made that decision and they made a decision and hopefully gained some point of view. For individuals who really don't think judges can make them do anything, it can be helpful.
Katherine Miller:
I completely agree with that. There's really two things that you're talking about. One is that it's a reality check and that this person isn't necessarily going to see it your way. And that there's going to be a hopefully balanced consideration of both people's perspective and an opportunity to see how the other side... I hate that word, but the opposing lawyer and his or her client is going to present because of course the courtroom is a terrible place to find out that the other side is a good point. Let's see that early on before trial, let's try to consider those things. A reality check is really there and it makes... I think also people see that it kind of narrows the playing field in terms of what's possible in the alternative dispute resolution world. We have these concepts called the BATNA and the WATNA. The BATNA is the best alternative to a negotiated agreement. And of course the WATNA is the worst alternative to a negotiated agreement. The courtroom can be either your BATNA or your WATNA, but you know what it is, you know what it looks like, you know how it works. And it just creates kind of a guardrail on the negotiation process, I think is what you're talking about.
Heather Quick:
Yes. I do think it's part of, can be very much part of a strategy to get to a settlement sometimes it really does. It's a helpful pool knowing what's out there, because I think it's really hard on our clients in so many ways because they just don't know and understand the reality of the courtroom, the formality, but the speed with which the judges are going to have to hear your case your whole life and they may condense it to eight hours, which is still a really long time for the court to give you. On TV, movies, things on the legal process shows over in an hour. So with commercial breaks. So it's like, well, they just investigate a murder and then do one trial and then another trial and got him convicted in an hour. Why does-
Katherine Miller:
With commercial breaks.
Heather Quick:
With commercial breaks. So I think that a lot of what we do have to do and face is helping our clients see the reality of the process, but that there are lots of options, litigation being an option sometimes that you're forced into by the other side, but definitely settlement mediation. With that idea of looking at your long term, how much is this really going to matter in 10 years, the issue that you really can't kind of move past.
Katherine Miller:
Exactly. That's what I was talking about earlier on in my career when I started to realize that those things that really do matter will be long lasting. If we could try to uncover them earlier than later, then people are going to spend less money and have a happier experience getting through the result. Because one thing that I think is really...I'm curious about your thoughts about this, Heather, but it can be very damaging for people, is to feel like they behave like their worst selves when they were getting divorced. One of the things that we really try to focus on is people's dignity, and that means our clients and the other side because I think that we all yearn to maintain our dignity and to hold onto our dignity. That's a whole political conversation there. But I think that we could probably agree that that's true regardless of our politics. If we can give our clients the opportunity to find that dignity in themselves and stay with it the whole time so that they feel good about how they were as a parent and good about how they were as a human being, good as how they were as a client and just throughout the entire process, I think that's something that everybody wins from.
Heather Quick:
I agree. I have a really good friend who's a psychologist as well who says unfortunately, but she said but really true that within divorce they're so often you just kind of have this temporary insanity and that makes it difficult for people because they aren't showing up as their best self all the time. It's hard for them to see past that. I know that that makes that difficult. I've had conversations with clients in the past that, well, you know what you're telling me though, we're not going to do that. And yes, these things could be done, but look at yourself in the mirror really is that the person that you are that want to hide this from people on your team, but then how does that make you look if you got caught? But what if you didn't even get caught, you know you weren't acting out of integrity. I don't think you ever win that way. You play the long game. You do take the high road and it does pay off. I have found that to be true definitely the majority of the time practically all the time.
Katherine Miller:
But I want to be really clear for your listeners, Heather, that taking the high road doesn't mean giving in. It doesn't mean rolling over. It doesn't mean being a doormat, it doesn't mean doing what you've always done go along to get along. I do not mean that. I want to be super, super clear about that, that taking the high road means focusing on what's important to you. Not fighting for fighting's sake, but fighting when it does matter. Or not fighting, but sticking up for yourself on the things that matter and laying it down when it matters. But not picking a fight for something that doesn't matter. Oh, they're interested in the pink towels, let them freaking have the pink towels. But when it comes to time with your kids or where they go to school or maintaining your lifestyle in a way that feels like it holds on to the essence of how you've promised what you've promised to your children, I am not talking about giving up on that and I just want to be really clear about that.
Heather Quick:
Well, and I appreciate that, Katherine, because I agree, and the name of this podcast, Women Winning Divorce is because if you achieve what you want, you do win. It about making someone else lose because see that's how I look at it differently. Just like you said, you're sticking up for yourself because you know what you want for you. We're not in it to make them lose because that's not the point of winning in the way I look at it.
Katherine Miller:
That's exactly right. I think that sometimes for our women clients feel that they've been bullied during the marriage and sometimes they're like, "Well, can you stick up for me or can you stick up?" What I usually say, and I don't know how you say is, "Listen, I'm not going to out bully a bully, but I am going to change the rules of the game. We're going to change it so that we're not playing by his rules and we don't let him frame the conversation in a way that he wins every single time. That's what we do. But we're not going to do it by yelling and screaming and waving our arms all around and threatening. That's not how to win at that battle in my personal opinion."
Heather Quick:
No, I agree. You can outsmart them most of the time. Very predictable ways that people behave. I know you know. So, absolutely. Well, as we go into break and after break, I want to talk to you about really some of the reasons that, you see people get divorced. I think we have it as the top six reasons. So we'll follow up with that after the break.
All right, Katherine, so let's get into it. Let's talk about why people get divorced. We've both been doing this a really long time and I have a feeling that as we join our heads together and talk about the top reasons, I think I've got six listed, I know there's so many, but why we hear that people in their marriage and what we've seen, and I'd love to get your feedback on that. And what do you see as maybe the most common reason, the most common issue that you see?
Katherine Miller:
Well, I actually think that the most common issue is communication problems and that the communication problems show up in a variety of different ways that are some of the reasons that we see money and sex and those kinds of things. But I think that a failure to figure out how to communicate in a way that doesn't feel like a win-lose argument all the time is the biggest problem.
Heather Quick:
I agree with you. You know what, okay, let's talk about, okay, a reason for divorce communication. Now don't you find though, interestingly enough that then it makes it so difficult sometimes to co-parent and to do all of the things after the divorce? Because the whole reason that the marriage broke down was communication.
Katherine Miller:
I do. That is exactly right. One of the things that I'm going to ask you about is that I think people, my clients are sometimes really, really frustrated that their spouses are acting the way they act and they're somehow surprised that it's not better now that they've decided to divorce them. I think that one of the things that we can do as part of the divorce process is teach them new communication modes and give them tools. Sometimes there's an app for that or remember to... A really big thing in my own divorce was every verbal conversation I followed up with an email just so I had a written trail. He could never say to me... Well, he did say, but when he did say to me, "I never agreed to that." I'd say, "Well, actually back on October 10th, we had this email exchange and you said yes to that, and here I can show you. I'm not saying I'm not willing to negotiate from there, but this is why I believe that we had agreed on this." That kind of thing. So I think that we can give them tools and we probably should because there are tools for that somehow easier to communicate when you're divorced if you really try.
Heather Quick:
I think so. Talking about communication though, because I think our clients have this belief or conception that one communication will be easier afterwards and sometimes it's, but then like, "Oh, I'm just going to be done. I'm going to be free." But as we know, if you have children, that's just not the case. That the communication now, even though it was one way during the marriage, however dysfunctional it was, well now it's under this scrutiny of looking through the court and when we're dealing with kids for later if there's issues. So it becomes so important that we get... You're right, they get a different mode of communication or use the apps, use the technology to help them really navigate that process.
Katherine Miller:
Absolutely. I mean this is another place though in what we call post-judgment, post after the divorce is over, where taking the high road really, really helps. And clarity, clarity, clarity. So being really clear, not letting them trigger you no matter what, you're not married to that person anymore. They don't get to trigger you anymore. Just find a way to let that go. Whether or not that's just meditation, prayer, therapy, coaching, whatever it is, it took me seven years before I could not have the internal reaction, well before I wasn't triggered and I had to walk myself through it. But to be really, really clear that it's not about you. This is about being a good parent for your kids, showing up for your kids, not making it worse for them and managing as best you can.
Heather Quick:
I think that's helpful advice. That's really the tools on not giving them that power to trigger you.
Katherine Miller:
Exactly.
Heather Quick:
Holding onto those powers, or the phrase that I do love that I learned from a Tony Robbins event was, "People say that you let them push your buttons." He's like, "They're your buttons. Hold onto your buttons. Stop giving people your buttons to let them push." I tell that to my kids when they're fighting and now they'll tell me, "Mom, hold onto your buttons, stop letting us push your buttons." It can make you kind of laugh at yourself. You're like, "You're right, you're right. I gave control of my emotions to you and that's on me."
Katherine Miller:
It's exactly right. I mean it sounds a little new agey, but they take your power when you let them do that and that's not right. You have control over that.
Heather Quick:
Absolutely. Absolutely. So as one of the common reasons that we hear and see for the marriage ending that I think is obviously everything kind of comes under the umbrella of communication, like you said, but definitely finances.
Katherine Miller:
For sure.
Heather Quick:
I think it's a big one.
Katherine Miller:
I do too. This is why I think everybody should at least talk about a prenup or talk about money before they get married. Whether or not you sign a prenup or you don't, sort of beside the point. The point is to have these conversations so that you don't get divorced because of a difference in money mindset. Some people like to save money, some people like to live in a high lifestyle. Some people think credit is a sin. Some people think credit is the way to live. There are so many... Some people think that college should be paid for their kids. Other people think that the kids should pay for college on their own. These are the kinds of things that I think once you get into a marriage can be a real wake-up call that you have some compatibility issues. You know what, if you started early on with a conversation in a pre-marriage kind of way, and you did it, you could find a way to have it all right.
You could find a way to accommodate each other. When you are in love and you're not feeling resentful and you're just saying, "We have a problem we need to solve because I like to save and you like to go on fancy vacations, how can we work this out?" In a way, I think it's totally doable, but once you've got so much history in the marriage and so much dispute and it feels personal, "How would you spend that money? When it's important to me to save,." It's a personal attack, then it's too far gone to really bring it back together. I had a couple of mediation once, and I had written a separation agreement for them, and they were on the verge of signing it. And I said to them, "If we could work out this money thing, would you want to stay married?"
They were like, "Yeah." And I'm like, "Well, you can. Because let's look at your budgets. You can have it all, you can do this and you can do that. And it's all within the budget." We did it. So we changed from a divorce mediation to a, let's figure out a budgeting conversation. They did it and they're still married. That was a unique circumstance because I could tell that they still really cared a lot about each other. They weren't so far gone, Heather, that the resentment was killing them. But most people, once it gets past a certain point, there's just no returning. I'm afraid.
Heather Quick:
I think you're right. Well, because then too much happens, right? Too many hurt feelings, too much build up over time. Things are said, actions taken that it's too hard to come back. I think that I had that exact same discussion on the finances surrounding the prenup conversation because what I've learned is as well, everybody else has beliefs about money and they come into the marriage just like we have beliefs about raising kids. We don't really think about when we don't have kids until we have kids. And then it's kind of like, "Oh, maybe we should have talked about that. But we didn't really know that. We have completely different philosophies." But I think that the money is such a big one because I mean, you got to have it, you got to use it, you got to pay bills and have the things. Once you combine finances and then if you're unable to talk about it or really deal with the things in the same way and bring emotion into it. And I think that's just for your regular run of... For any kind of a marriage, not where we're talking about where there is financial abuse and total control and over the money, which those are very difficult situations, I think more often than not women find themselves in. And that can be really different, more in depth conversation.
Katherine Miller:
For sure. I mean, that's on the scale of domestic violence where you have a real controlling situation. We're just talking here... At least I'm just talking here. I think about a different approach to money and a different way of managing it. Money means so much in our society besides a way to pay the bills. It's how we think about success and power and how we measure ourselves based on our neighbors and our families of origin and each other. I think that's where we sometimes get into trouble or our clients get into trouble because the money means more than just the way to pay the bills.
Heather Quick:
It does. I'll be surprised if you haven't heard this before because I've heard it many times, "But wait, that's my retirement. He's the one who cashed his in and spent all of his." I mean at least in Florida, "Oh no, it belongs to both of you. Guys been married long since you started saving and spending it. It's both sides." Now it's a real wake-up call that is very difficult for many women to hear as well as, no, no, no, this is the way it goes. They'll come tell me, "He said, all that retirement is his." And it's like, "Well, no, it's actually half yours." So those are like you said, the beliefs and they attach more. I've worked so hard, I did this, you didn't do this. Now we've attached on this emotion to the money that then really creates a lot of issues that then I think can lead to divorce.
Katherine Miller:
Well, for sure. Because for one thing, money in that circumstance means security. You're saying wait a second, you want to get divorced, that's fine, but you're going to rob me of my security on top of that. That's not happening. But of course it is happening.
Heather Quick:
Now, so in Florida, Katherine, when we plead for divorce, one of the things you have to prove, and it's a no fault state now, so you don't really have to actually prove it, but you do have to say that irreconcilable differences. I think there was a movie once on one of that or whatever, but that's really the standard in Florida. I think that means a lot of different things to a lot of people. But obviously that's a reason for divorce. They just don't work anymore. They're incompatible. What do you think about that?
Katherine Miller:
Yeah, I may think that's a complicated question. In New York, it's an irretrievable breakdown of the marriage. I think that comes down again to communication. To me it just means that we're just not working together anymore. We're not a team anymore. But the thing that's ironic about it is that I get a lot of people who come and say, "I wish he'd hit me. I wish he'd hit me. Or I wish there'd be an affair or something like that, that I could point to and say, this is the reason this is over, instead of just coming apart and not being a good unit anymore." It's so hard, I think for some people to identify what it is that it is when the marriage has broken down. Before I got married for the first time, my grandmother said to me, "Katherine, you can never get divorced."
It was ironic because I was a divorce lawyer at the time, and I said to her, "If I'm unhappy, I'm going to get divorced." She said, "No, family comes first." What she meant was that if I had to be an alcoholic or a drug addict or have affairs with men or women or both at the same time, whatever I had to do, I had to do that because keeping the family together was the most important thing.I was in fact the first person in my family to ever get divorced, ever going back as many generations as we have records for. And there are a lot of records. That was a really big thing to do. It really felt like, oh my God, I'm taking this really big step. Of course, I was a divorce lawyer, so at least I knew what I was talking about. I think that for some people that's really hard. But you know what, Heather, the thing that meant for me what I thought was my parents are going to pass away and my children are going to grow up and leave home and I'm going to be left alone with this guy. That filled my heart with dread. To me that was enough of a breakdown of the marriage to do what I needed to do.
Heather Quick:
Well, and that is so helpful to hear because once your marriage, when it's irretrievably broken, it means there's nothing left to do. There's nothing left that you can do to repair it within your power and in a way that you can go on living and being fulfilled, like you said. I think to me, it means something different for everybody. Whether it's you grow apart, you have different views. I think it's not just one thing, it builds and then all of a sudden it's like, "No, we're done." So I know that one's a hard one because like you said, there's not this shining answer. Somebody says, "This is exactly why it broke." Because usually there's more than one thing. Usually the thing they say that the reason it broke infidelity is not the reason it broke it. That was the effect of all of the other pain and hurt and incompatibility and things that went on beforehand.
Katherine Miller:
It's a symptom, right?
Heather Quick:
Yes.
Katherine Miller:
Not the cause.
Heather Quick:
Yes. Absolutely. All right, well on the next segment, we'll continue this conversation because there's still more reasons. I know that everybody get divorced all the time, so we'll be right back.
We are back on Women Winning Divorce and continuing our discussion on the common causes of divorce with Katherine Miller. So Katherine, we left off talking about irretrievably broken marriages and reconcilable differences. And we left off talking kind of, "Hey, the symptoms are what maybe some people do say was the cause of the breakup of the marriage." But I think what we hear so often is infidelity that cheating on either their side or both. That could be something that's very difficult to overcome for couples.
Katherine Miller:
Absolutely. I think that feels, for many people, like the ultimate betrayal. And I think that people stray into infidelity for a variety of reasons. But I think it's mostly a yearning for intimacy. When a couple grows apart, either because children have come in and it feels like one parent has changed, usually her love interests to the children, it's obviously different. But that same kind of attentiveness that might have once been given to a spouse is now really lavished on the children. Then that mom is exhausted at the end of the day and doesn't have any energy left over for anybody else. Or work interests go in different ways. Or there's maybe what's something that feels like a financial betrayal that then plays out in a sexual relationship outside the marriage. But it is really, really hard to overcome that. Some couples can do that, but many find it feels like something that's impossible to overcome.
Heather Quick:
Well, it's such a foundation of a marriage, but at the end of the day, I think, you really touched on it is that intimacy, which is, that's not really sex, it's that closeness, it's that is that togetherness that really does happen. Marriages do kind of ebb and flow and as having, thankfully quite some time ago that young kids. But my goodness, everybody's sleep deprived. There's so much going on. I think that marriage takes work as we both know. It takes recognizing, "Hey, this is going on right now. It's not forever." But many times it just can go on for a long time and the kids become the primary focus of the mother and or dad. But either way to replace the marriage and then all of a sudden a lot of that just goes away. I know some people like, "Oh well we let our kids sleep in the bed forever and ever and then we never had any time together." Well that can happen, right? That's true. Yeah, you don't have any time.
Katherine Miller:
It's a really hard thing to talk about if you have sexual incompatibility, you just don't like it that much or you don't click together chemically or whatever anymore, or you never really did and you got married anyway. It's just so an awkward conversation to have and going to couples counseling and talking about sex can feel just shameful and embarrassing. I think though that if people are listening to this and are thinking, "Yeah, that's me." That it's worth working on and trying because divorce is hard. I think I'm the poster child for, you shouldn't stay married if you're married to the wrong person no matter what pressure you're under. But divorce is not easy and it's often the right decision, but it's not always the right decision. I think when you're going through the divorce, you should think, "Listen, I did everything I could." And feel like you really tried.
If it feels like you both tried even better because I think you'll feel a lot better about the whole thing afterwards if you feel like you really did. It's worth having a difficult conversation or two in order to try to rectify something that might possibly be put back on track. I feel like I sound like don't get divorced and this whole podcast has been about that. I don't mean that at all, what I mean is that it really makes sense since you took the time you invested in the marriage, you had children together, you combined your finances and your families. When you decide to take that apart because it's hard to do, it's really a good idea to be thoughtful about why you're doing it and how you're going to do that.
Heather Quick:
No, and I completely agree because it's worth it. If you can't have the conversation with your spouse about this, that it's not going to magically change that you're able to have this conversation then if you're in a subsequent relationship, I mean it takes both people to make it and to break it. I do believe maybe they're not equal parts because it's very often somebody's like, "I didn't do anything wrong." But we both know it can be difficult and sometimes maybe that conversation is one, at least you try to have with a counselor to understand if there is that lack of intimacy or incompatibility with your spouse because that's not going to just magically change most likely. It's going to be a hard conversation. If I agree, if somebody's listening and they're thinking that's me, it's like at least try to talk to a counselor and then maybe teaching you how to talk about it because lawyers aren't going to know you've never really had that conversation or know how to bring it up without being ashamed or like you said that shamefulness.
Because then I do think eventually there comes a point and there's probably going to be some infidelity and sometimes, you hear this... I'm sure you've heard this because I know I have. Well, it's an emotional affair or just like you were saying, the financials, it was felt like a financial affair. But that's what does tend to happen and you feel so hurt and it's very hard, like you said, to come back from that because now you feel... The trust is so violated that you really can't come back from that. I think that is definitely one of the top reasons I hear women coming to our office, whether it's on their part or on their husband, "Yeah, we've tried to rebuild after an affair and just can't."
Katherine Miller:
Absolutely. Because one thing that you're talking about, Heather is a mistrust and mistrust is malignant. So once you mistrust in a relationship in one area, in the area of your sexual relationship or money, it just spreads everywhere. I've had many of our male clients say, "Well I know I had an affair, but I've never done anything with the money. I can't understand why she doesn't trust me with regard to the money." And it's like, "Well she just doesn't trust you dude." But it goes the other way. I mean, I think the studies show that more wives than husbands have affairs. The idea that it's the cheating husband is wrong. People have affairs because they feel, I think that lack of intimacy, they don't have that connection. They yearn to have that connection and intimacy on an emotional or physical level that they had before or maybe they never had it. But that is just something, a human need and we're all looking for that. Hopefully we can find it in our marriages, but not always.
Heather Quick:
True. In that attention and the things that we just sometimes I think overlook and the longer you overlook those important things in a marriage, then it just goes away. Or you go somewhere else because... You have those opportunities that otherwise probably wouldn't have been susceptible to. If you're feeling fulfilled and loved and respected within a marriage, I think that that does tend to lead so often.
Katherine Miller:
Well, let me ask you a question, Heather, if that's okay?
Heather Quick:
Sure.
Katherine Miller:
I think that there could be people listening who are thinking they're describing me, but I can live with it until the kids leave home. What do you think about that? I have an opinion, but I'd like to hear what you think.
Heather Quick:
So I think that's just, you're in denial is if you're telling yourself that because whatever the issues are in your marriage, that is what you're teaching your children and that you learn how to be married, how to be a parent basically from your family of origin until you are able to learn from other resources. But you learn what you grow up with as your primary understanding. And so if you scream at each other, you argue, you show no love and affection. That is exactly what I think you're modeling to your children. Your daughters are like, "oh, okay, that's okay to be treated like that." Your sons are like, "it's okay to treat a woman like that because that's what I've learned and they seem to be okay with it and they put up with it." So that to me is worse than if you're just staying in it and not impressioning the children. So I think it affects your children more so adversely to stay in a bad relationship and a dysfunctional relationship than to get divorced and move on and show them that that was not okay.
Katherine Miller:
Yeah. I agree with that. I think that's a really important, remembering that we're modeling for our children all the time, but I don't think you do your kids really a big favor with that either. I remember teaching a class in law school a number of years ago, and many of the students in the class said, "My parents..." There's a bunch of them talking. So a bunch of "Mys." Right? A bunch of students are like, "They stayed married until I left for college. That was so much worse because then I felt like I was responsible for keeping them together. Me leaving meant that they were no longer together. Then they were calling me." One person described her mother coming and sleeping with her and her freshman roommate to get away from her father.
It was like, you put so much on those kids and it makes it seem like that they're responsible for the marriage and then they're leaving meant that it failed. I mean, what kind of life lesson is that? I also don't think it's very likely that you're going to make it all that way. If your kids are nine and 11, we're talking nine years of white knuckling it and something else is going to happen in that time or you're going to get sick or your spouse is. I think that is just not a realistic way to live your lives. This is the only life we know we're given and every single minute of it counts.
Heather Quick:
Yeah, I absolutely agree. But very many people have that mindset that then it's okay, the last one turns 18, drop them off of college, serve them with divorce. I know I did a show on that because of the developmental ages of your children and we all think it's so much harder when they're younger.I've seen it play out. I was young when my parents got divorced and there's this emotionalness that you feel, but they are so adaptable and they can go back and forth and they don't mouth off as much because I'm telling you, you're going to hear it from the older kids and they're going to have so much more resentment that I know some kids, I've heard stories where they're like, "Why didn't you do this 10 years ago? This was awful. Why did we have to live through that when now I'm gone, great." They're young adults their developmental stage is... It's just a different perspective they're going to have. So I think that as a reason does a disservice again yes, to yourself, your spouse and your kids. It really does.
Katherine Miller:
Yeah, I agree.
Heather Quick:
Well, I wanted to touch on abuse because I know in your many years of experience as well as mine, we've both seen it on so many fronts as far as physical, emotional, verbal, or financial abuse. And I think that is definitely a reason or an effect, cause whatever of a divorce for sure.
Katherine Miller:
Absolutely. I mean, no one should stay in an abusive relationship. I mean, I feel that's a pretty hands down statement. No one should stay in an abusive relationship and because usually the underlying reason of the abuse is controlled. We talked about that a little bit earlier, that one person should not be controlled by the other person. That doesn't mean that you're not married to a controlling person. I'm not talking about it in that kind of vernacular. I'm talking about serious control where somebody's movement, their freedom, their ability to buy things and live their lives freely is compromised. I feel very strongly that that's just not right. It definitely sets a terrible message and picture of marriage for your kids. I think that that's reason enough to end it no matter how hard.
Heather Quick:
I agree that is... I've been asked before, "Well, what do you think I should do? Should I get divorced?" If there's abuse, I definitely say, "You got to leave. Absolutely." That is one of those things where I'm like, "No, you have to leave. Otherwise all the other issues that we've talked about, you're going to have to make that decision." But when safety's an issue and there's just so many risks that of course we've both seen and so many dangerous situations that can occur for the family if there is abuse.
Katherine Miller:
Absolutely. In the divorce process, of course there going to have to be some additional protections put into place. And it's not going to be easy, but it's going to be better.
Heather Quick:
It is. At least there are things that can be in place and it'll be worth it too, because your peace of mind and wellbeing as well as for your children, it's definitely worth it. I know that.
Katherine Miller:
Yeah.
Heather Quick:
Well, Katherine, this has been such a pleasure. I really appreciate your time today and I know that our listeners appreciate as well. I thank you so much for coming on our show. Of course any listeners, they can catch your podcast at The Divorce Dialogues, right? On all of the mediums that you can listen to your podcast.
Katherine Miller:
Yes. It's also on the podcast website, which is divorcedialogues.com.
Heather Quick:
Lovely. Well, Katherine, thank you again so much for being here today. I really enjoyed our discussion. And for anyone who wants to reach out to Katherine who does practice in New York, they can find you at the Miller Law Group, is that correct?
Katherine Miller:
Yep. It's miller-law.com.
Heather Quick:
Wonderful. Well, thank you once again and I appreciate your time today.
Katherine Miller:
Thank you for having me.
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