Today Heather Quick talks about the top reasons for divorce. She discusses why people get divorced, incompatibility along with infidelity and addiction/abuse.
"Women Winning Divorce" is a radio show and podcast hosted by Heather Quick, CEO and Owner of Florida Women's Law Group. Each week we focus on different aspects of family law to help guide women through the difficult and emotional legal challenges they are facing. Heather brings over 20 years of law experience that advocates and empowers women to achieve happier and healthier lives. Join Heather each week as she discusses family law issues including divorce, custody, alimony, paternity, narcissism, mediation and more.
This program was created to provide tips and insight to women with family law issues. It is not intended to be legal advice because every situation is different.
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Women Winning Divorce
Episode 26
Top Reasons for Divorce
Julie Morgan:
Welcome to Women Winning Divorce with your host, Heather Quick. Heather brings over 20 years of law experience that advocates and empowers women to achieve happier and healthier lives. Each week we provide knowledge and guidance on different aspects of family law to help lead women through the difficult and emotional legal challenges that they are facing. Listen in as she discusses issues, including divorce, custody, alimony, paternity, narcissism, mediation, and other family law issues to provide insight on the journey of Women Winning Divorce.
Julie Morgan:
Welcome to the show, I'm Julie Morgan, and I'm joined by your host Heather Quick.
Julie Morgan:
Heather, how are you today?
Heather Quick:
I am wonderful, Julie, how are you?
Julie Morgan:
I'm doing very well. Before we got started, I told you that I live a very boring life and it continues. I'm still sitting in my closet as usual.
Heather Quick:
Girl, we got to get you out more.
Julie Morgan:
Oh, I know, but you know what? Actually, I thought about it. I said, whenever Legally Blonde, the third installment comes out, that's going to be a date for Heather and I.
Heather Quick:
You better believe it. That is a movie date, for sure. As you can imagine, that is one of my favorite movies. I will date myself because it doesn't seem like it was that old, but that came out when I was in law school.
Julie Morgan:
Really?
Heather Quick:
Yes, yes.
Julie Morgan:
No, no.
Heather Quick:
Yes. I know.
Julie Morgan:
I don't believe you. No, no. So Heather, so today's topic is top reasons for divorce. Let's talk about it. Is it still true that 50% of marriages end in divorce, or is the number higher? For some reason, I feel like it's higher.
Heather Quick:
So unfortunately yes, that 50% number is holding true for sure. I think I read an article the other day that we have seen an increase over the past couple years, but the average still kind of hangs that 50%.
I think that increase is due to recent circumstances with the pandemic as we can all imagine, and just so many life-changing things that were beyond our control and all those stresses, but yeah, we're looking at 50% of marriages end in divorce.
Julie Morgan:
Ooh, like I said, it seems like the number is higher, but also 50% that's pretty high as well.
Heather Quick:
It is.
Julie Morgan:
Is there a certain group or demographic that has a higher rate of divorce?
Heather Quick:
We did talk about this in previous episodes that on one hand divorce is going down for some age groups, but it's higher than ever for people in their 50s, 60s and frankly, even 70s. I think there's so many things, from my experience, that I could opine on, but people live longer and you're with the same person longer. I think it's inevitable that people change and people grow, but if it's not together... I think we all get to a certain point and I know I see this often, that there is like that aha moment and you're like, what? I've got another 20 years of my life and I'm not doing this. I am not doing it with this person any longer.
Julie Morgan:
So basically they just get fed up. They say that, okay, this is something that I put up with before and I just can't continue.
Heather Quick:
Yeah, and I mean life and circumstances change. If you don't stay in tune with your spouse and you two are not really working towards the same type of goal, but engaging with one another, you're going to grow apart. And there comes a day where you're like, this is just a roommate and for some people they're like, and I'm okay with that. And for some folks they're like, no, I want more, I want more than that. I live with a person, but I'm lonely. You know what I mean? Like not just alone, you're lonely because you have somebody there, but yet you feel very lonely because there's not that connection.
Julie Morgan:
Yes, those two words mean something very different, alone and lonely. Yes, that's interesting. Okay well, let's kind of go back a little bit. Is there one most common reason that people get divorced, if you had to rank the reasons, one most common reason?
Heather Quick:
There are so many, and I mean we can go into so many. I do think money, probably if we were to distill everything down to it, money and finances could be really one of the top reasons. I think that that can be the basis of so many other things. If that makes sense? That can be the reason that you leave and go have an affair, but really, maybe it came down to money and the way you look at things or want to have experiences.
But I think the truly biggest thing is that the communication breaks down and there's a shift in goals, but those aren't communicated. Like for example, you start out and we'll just do the traditional younger and get married, in love and it's, we're working to buy a house, have children and raise them. That's a common, very broad goal, but you could see how, okay, hey, we're both on board with that. Somewhere along the way that changes, maybe the kids are getting bigger. Then it's like, well, what am I doing? Or do we still have the same goals?
That doesn't even have to happen later. Many times I see, from my experience, marriages experience trouble very early on after children are born. It's very life-changing and some men do not want to lose that attention and are unable to really grasp that, and some women are unable to really focus on the marriage and the kids, they just kind of ignore their husband.
So, I think at the end of the day the goals change, but yet they forgot to communicate that to one another. So they're just not really headed in the same direction and therefore there comes disagreements or just living parallel lives, but there's not any connection any longer.
Julie Morgan:
Oh man, you just touched on so many different things because I listen to that and I say, well, once it gets to the point of divorce, do they agree about the reason that they're getting a divorce?
Heather Quick:
I would probably say most of the time, no, although not at the beginning. I think that once people can have some reflection on a divorce, which is a life-changing thing, as we've talked in all these episodes, emotional, and it's not going to be just one thing. It really isn't anyway because okay, a glaring obvious reason would be an affair. That's a valid reason, but there are so many things that probably came before that and that was really an effect. It's like cause and effect, and that was just the result of a lot of other stuff that wasn't working.
Many times, that's when people go outside, I'm not excusing that under any circumstances, it's just in my experience you see that. And so then they're like, that's the reason. It's like, well, that is a reason, but it's really the result of probably a lot of buildup over years.
Julie Morgan:
So it does not start with, oh, I had an affair, the affair had to get there... It had to get to that point from some other point, right? It had to start somewhere else.
Heather Quick:
I think so. I won't ever really know, obviously I'm not a therapist and you just only have such exposure to so many people. I think it really starts with the communication because couples just may find they argue over the same things all the time, and then there becomes resentment, harsh words. It’s that breakdown of talking and sharing in life, because really that's what relationship is supposed to be, is that sharing experiences, talking about them and working through them together.
I think it is that breakdown in communication that probably really happens first. Then we can talk about, okay then money and finance as well. If we're unable to communicate, and we're unable to really communicate our point of view as well as listen to someone else's, which I find that challenging. I mean, I do and just in general.
I think that anybody who's strong-willed or as we get feelings and opinions about certain things, it can be difficult to work through that communication because we're not always taught that as children.
Julie Morgan:
So communication, you would say that it probably all starts with communication.
Heather Quick:
I think so. And I can see this from so many different lenses, of course Julie, from being in that divorce attorney seat, from running a business and understanding there are different ways people communicate in the workplace and in learning about that, and learning, oh wow, I might need to change so that my message can be conveyed and received.
I've had exposure to a lot of things that have given me this insight and it doesn't mean I naturally operate in this way, but I do think that it all starts with communication and not even understanding, hey, how do I best communicate with my spouse? Because when we're all in love and get married, oh, we just think we all agree. We each agree with everything that the other one does or says.
Sometimes maybe you just stay quiet too long, and one day, boy, it bubbles up and you're like, I'm out, I am so tired, but yet that was never really communicated, because maybe you didn't know how to stand up for yourself, find your voice. And similar with your husband, maybe like, ah I'm so over this, you've been nagging me, telling me to do stuff forever and I'm done, yet he never was able to really communicate that to you.
Julie Morgan:
And could it possibly also be that before you didn't see it because you possibly had these blinders on, these love blinders, and then all of a sudden it just becomes apparent and you're just like, I can't do this. Where did this come from?
Heather Quick:
I do. I also think that as we navigate, all of us, through life, we experience different things, some harder than others, but I think that's a guarantee we're going to have difficult times in life. When you're with a partner, just with everybody, in a work relationship, in any relationship, when there's no issue, it's easy. But then we get a bump in the road and let's say money/finances, things get difficult. Somebody loses their job, the housing market tanks, whatever, if something happens financially now your communication is stressed.
So now suddenly, oh my gosh, how do we talk about this? Now we have never established how to communicate with one another, and either we're able to use this difficult time to figure that out or we grow further apart. I think that's how it goes and you see that for all kind of people. You'll see when there's divorce, there are these maybe external factors, but really it comes down to that basic basis or that foundation, that's the word I'm looking for, that foundation may not have been as strong. And so then it has a harder time withstanding difficulties.
Julie Morgan:
Could it possibly be because you didn't talk about those big things, those major things that you probably should have talked about before you got married, like money and finances and how you're going to handle it.
Heather Quick:
I think so, and I just think we don't know as individuals. I think most people enter marriage and what do we have to learn from? The ones we grew up observing. You think that all families were like yours, whether that's good or bad, it is, what it is. I don't think there is a label on it, but you think, oh, okay, this is how families operate. One of the things I learned early on just through observation is that my husband and I are very similar, we're different, but in a lot of ways we're similar I think from that family of origin.
One of the things I felt very interesting is people in families argue and have disagreements in different ways. Some families just are yellers, I guess, ours was not. We repress everything, keep very quiet and polite, but so it's all different.
So, if somebody raised their voice, that's a big deal, that doesn't happen. I thought, wow, that would be difficult because you don't even argue the same. For people who like to just yell and go all crazy, they move on and they're fine. If they live with people who do it that way, that's the way they operate and so that's like a total difference. Like whereas me, I would be just like totally crushed if somebody raised their voice at me in a relationship or something because I never... that is just not the way it worked. And you don't even know, you don't really realize that.
Now I had the benefit I will say of my having kind of our family dynamic change when either parent married other spouses. Not that I recognized it at the time, but as an adult, I can look back and go, oh yeah, that was why we didn't like that person and didn't understand them.
So I think the communication, then it comes down to money. I know in one episode on prenups we talked about, I'm pretty sure, financial counseling. I think money is huge because again, we grow up with these beliefs based on how we're raised and what we are exposed to as children and young adults. If we don't even know it and can't talk about it then how does that play out in a marriage? It's difficult.
Julie Morgan:
Oh Heather, this is going to be a good conversation. You're listening to Women Winning Divorce with Heather Quick, owner and attorney of Florida Women's Law Group. We're going to take a quick break here but when we return, we're going to talk more about why people get divorced. We're going to focus more on money and finances and also incompatibility. Stay with us.
Julie Morgan:
Welcome back to Women Winning Divorce with Heather Quick, owner and attorney of Florida Women's Law Group.
Julie Morgan:
Heather, let's talk a little bit more about money and finances. Now, I really like the way you said that this all starts with communication and I can definitely see that. All of the issues or the problems or the reasons for divorce that we are going to go talk about, really start with communication. Let's talk more about money and finances. So let's say that you have different views on money, would you say that's one of the reasons that would fall under money and finances?
Heather Quick:
That is, I would say, absolutely correct because I've used this phrase so many times, one's a saver, one's a spender. I think what really happened within that one, and even when you have the one earning more money or no money versus more money, whatever it is, that disparity, we attach feelings to money, that's where it gets difficult. We attach either guilt for spending or maybe even resentment because I'm saving, and I have to save more. There's all kind of feelings that I think people attach to them, but I think in and of itself, we tend to fall into a saver or a spender. If we're unable to communicate that and learn ways to do money together, it makes it difficult, particularly when one is earning and the other's staying home or making significantly less.
Julie Morgan:
But it seems like this is something that you could have picked up on possibly when you were dating. You might have seen lots of bags and bags and bags at the person's house or... You know what I mean? It just seems like this is something you could have picked up on.
Heather Quick:
Well, I think so but I don't know, because maybe you don't have a lot of money or things to buy when you're younger, maybe you're still learning, figuring out who you are. I think now the older you are when you enter into a marriage, the more a kind of sense of self you have. And now Julie, this I know is going to shock you, but we might not always be our true self in the whole dating game, we might be our best version of who we want to be.
Julie Morgan:
That's the truth, yeah. Yes.
Heather Quick:
And then, oh, here's who I really am, honey, a couple years into the marriage and so...
Julie Morgan:
Yeah. That's true, that's true.
Heather Quick:
Let me just say this because this is funny, I think, because when I saw it, I thought it was hilarious and I don't really watch this show, but I have watched it and it's that Mrs. Maisel or something on Amazon, whatever, you know what I'm talking about?
Julie Morgan:
I haven't... I do. I do. I never watched it.
Heather Quick:
Okay. She goes to bed with a fully made-up face, waits for him to go to sleep, goes and washes her face and puts cream all over her face and then has an alarm to wake up 10 minutes before he wakes up, to get up, clean her face and put her makeup back on.
Julie Morgan:
So he thinks she looks like that all the time?
Heather Quick:
Exactly, and I just thought that was the funniest thing. That exactly explains sometimes, because that's what her mother did. So that's what she learned. She's like, well, that's what I got to do.
Julie Morgan:
The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel.
Heather Quick:
There you go. Good job. I mess up on those kinds of names all the time. But anyway, that's a funny outward example, but sometimes maybe. It's not all women as I'm certain, I know it's both, but it may not be an opportunity to come out and say, here I am, love it or leave it now before we get too invested.
Julie Morgan:
Okay. Well, let me ask you this, let me ask you this. Do you find that women are able to say love it or leave it, the older they get?
Heather Quick:
I don't know. I really don't. I think that depends on what you want. Maybe you see things in a way that you're willing to settle because, well, I want to have a child or I don't want to be alone or you get so set in your ways that then you do become more like this is it. I think that just varies on where you are in a stage in your life, I think as women. I think we all evolve and we recognize, hey, this is what I'm looking for in my life now versus what I was when I was younger. So I would hope you'd have more standards as you gain maturity and age because you've had more exposure and you're like, I know I don't like that.
Julie Morgan:
Yeah. I like the way you put that, more standards, that is the better way to put it. Let's talk about the word that I wasn't able to say before we took a break earlier, incompatibility. I look at this word and I say, hmm, this has so many different levels because you could be incompatible on multiple levels, whether it's intimacy, whether it is, like we said earlier, money. I mean, so how does this play out?
Heather Quick:
So the common reason, and basically this is in the statute of the law is, we have irreconcilable differences, meaning we just can't see eye-to-eye. Just like we were talking about earlier, maybe you were married too young, and you didn't even know who you were. I mean, my parents were married when they were 19. I mean, oh my goodness. I look at my daughter now at 19, I remember myself at 19, I didn't have a clue, but yet I have an aunt and uncle, they were married very young and they grew together. So that's the difference, and people grow apart.
I think that different views on raising children is huge. I found that to be very challenging, very early on, because you might have picked up, I'm kind of a strong personality and I kind of think I know everything, certainly at home. And it was like, well, I had this baby, so I'm not really looking for feedback. That's not a good way to parent children. I had to learn, I had to grow and maybe share in some decisions. And religious differences, that is huge. We underestimate how big of a deal that is.
Julie Morgan:
Heather, strong personality, I never picked that up. Okay? I'm just telling you.
Heather Quick:
Well, I was hiding it. We're still in like our honeymoon phase.
Julie Morgan:
Too funny. So religious differences, I mean, is that something that you've heard about or seen possibly?
Heather Quick:
Oh, absolutely. Again, you're dating, you're like, oh, I'm so open-minded, things are all okay. And when you marry there are certain aspects, certain religions and beliefs, there are certain different types of ceremonies, but I think it really, really comes into play when you have kids because your life does change and your outlook on a lot of things begin to change. You do default to a lot of what you know, and those beliefs that you didn't know that you maybe had, or it wasn't as big of a deal, it really changes, and you have family influences.
I think that religion and culture, not to say that that in and of itself creates incompatibility. I think that if people don't really understand and be willing to address it and communicate it, they're being very naive.
Julie Morgan:
It goes back to communication.
Heather Quick:
Yeah, because some things are very difficult to overcome, or we've got to go your way versus my way. I just think those are things that if you're in that situation, take the time to invest in some really good kind of counseling and learning how to communicate. Because I think as we get into a marriage and child rearing, having children and experiencing life and then family, you just don't know what you don't know.
You could educate yourself, you can work through and try to anticipate it, but you just don't know what you don't know and life is going to throw different things at you and it's going to affect your marriage.
Julie Morgan:
What about life after retirement, what if I say, I want to sail around the world and then my spouse says, nah, I just want to stay home?
Heather Quick:
That's really, really hard. Many times I see that, and I think there's a lot of physiological changes that occur, both in men and women. I think women are like, man, I am ready to go, I've been raising kids, we've been doing all this stuff and now let's go have some fun. And for a lot of men, they're like, are you kidding me? I don't want to go anywhere. That is so very stereotypical of me to say that, but that is what I've seen, that's just my experience.
As to what I've seen, that can be really hard because of course, retirement, depending on the age of the man or woman is going to have quite an impact, particularly if you've poured your life into your work or business, don't have a lot outside of that and your identity was really attached to this job, this business, that doesn't exist.
You don't know where your identity is and your partner can't always understand because again, back down to communication and I do think physiologically, like I said, there's so much about our bodies and our hormones and our brain chemistry, everything, that changes that there's not a lot of research or a lot of knowledge about it.
Then people are like, oh, you're just depressed, and they want to medicate you versus maybe there's something else and that really creates difficulty and incompatibility in a marriage, which we're talking about intimacy like that too, that happens. And it's not just sex, intimacy and sex, they're two different things, but yet that's an important part of a relationship.
Julie Morgan:
And that sounds like, I mean, it's kind of touchy, it's a touchy subject, so you may not want to communicate about it.
Heather Quick:
Exactly, and again, you may not know how. And it is, does somebody get defensive? Does somebody have their feelings hurt, feels rejected? There can be so many things. I think that the more there is that separation and that lack of that intimacy, and that's just like just trusting and talking to somebody. I mean, everybody associates it with sex, but again, it's like communication and somebody you really trust and are affectionate with the longer that goes not being present, the harder, I think it can be to get that back.
Julie Morgan:
And at that point you may not have realized how important that aspect of the marriage really was until you lose it.
Heather Quick:
Yeah, I mean, what are you supposed to say to your partner? Whether you're the husband or the wife, maybe you should go get checked out because why don't you want to have sex? That's not a very nice way to say it, I don't know what is a nice way to say it, you know what I mean? But yet, I think that happens as well. Again, it can be difficult and as people grow apart or it becomes more of like, I'm not interested in that or whatever. I think so much goes into that that I am not equipped, experienced, educated on to speak about, except that I think that are a lot of issues that do build in that area that cause divorce and then lead to people stepping outside their marriage.
Not that that's an excuse, but they're looking for something and it's easier to go find somebody who will meet those needs than to really try to talk to your partner about how can we move through this?
Julie Morgan:
Yes. I mean, this is just a touchy, touchy subject all the way around, and I can see how it's very difficult to talk about, but this is also where you could possibly bring in therapy.
Heather Quick:
Indeed, and I think that it is, it's a very private thing and you can feel so rejected. I think that women, our bodies change exponentially especially if you've had childbirth, but just like through that and that affects it and so do hormones. It certainly does affect men as well, and there's so much that goes into that and that can really absolutely affect that type of intimacy and that rejection or low self-esteem makes it, I think, more difficult to address those types of issues with each other.
Julie Morgan:
But then this really becomes the time when you have to really focus on the marriage, focus on the other person so you don't go down that road unnecessarily.
Heather Quick:
Yeah, I know. Sometimes I think you don't really recognize that, or you don't know how to do that and then things get said, people do things that maybe they shouldn't, and then sometimes you just can't repair it.
It's just one of those things that, yes, it needs therapy and then the question is, well when? How do people know? They're just trying to navigate through this because it's not the way it was most likely in the beginning. So now they're like, wait, why did it change? Or why didn't it change? So I just think that a lot of those things are what we just, as humans, don't always fully understand. We don't always have a resource to talk to someone who can explain some of this to you or give you some insight into what's going on maybe with your partner rather than just blaming. It's difficult.
Julie Morgan:
Yeah. You're listening to Women Winning Divorce with Heather Quick, owner and attorney of Florida Women's Law Group. We're going to take a quick break here, but when we return, we'll talk more about why people get divorced. We're going to talk about infidelity, addiction and abuse. Stay with us.
Julie Morgan:
Welcome back to Women Winning Divorce with Heather Quick, owner and attorney of Florida Women's Law Group.
Julie Morgan:
Heather, infidelity, you mentioned this in part one and part two of the show. Infidelity, but again it goes back to communication, it doesn't start with infidelity.
Heather Quick:
I would agree most of the time. Yeah, I think that that's an effect of other problems generally speaking. One of the things, this came to me on the break, that I wanted to share because I'm always sharing, hey, my mom taught me this... My dad said to me one time, he said that women marry men thinking they can change them and men marry women thinking they'll never change.
If I've remembered anything, it's that one thing. I was like, that explains a lot. Then if you don't communicate that, oh yeah, I'm going to whip him, I'm going to change him. Get him to be just who I want him to be, not who he is. And then, the man thinks you'll never change, but yet you do and evolve.
I think that's where, when there's infidelity on either side, somebody's looking to meet the needs that they're unable to meet themselves or that they feel are lacking in the marriage. Whether in fact that's actually true, and I don't really think it is. I think that if somebody cheats, if the marriage fails, both parties need to take responsibility, it didn't happen just by one person in and of itself.
Now maybe one person you think is more, has done more, but either way that comes with, I think healing usually afterwards, but that bond of trust that infidelity... sometimes it can just be that emotional. You feel like emotionally, they just cheated on you because they've been talking with this person and I think that was a big thing when social media really exploded.
Well, I remember it like 15 years ago, it was probably before that but when it came to the adults, we started to connect with people. It just made it easier. That's not the cause of the divorce, that's not the cause of the infidelity, it made it easier. It's kind of like, is somebody going to steal the cash in your car? Well, if you leave a hundred dollars bill with the window down and the car unlocked, you've provided easier access, they may not have been a thief if it had been locked, they might not have broken the door and gone in, but people are going to do what they're going to do.
Heather Quick:
I think, because they're looking for that communication or they're looking for that reminder of the way somebody sees them, because maybe their spouse sees them as a slob, as somebody who doesn't clean up after themselves or pull their weight around the house or as a good dad. They can go into another relationship and be seen as this handsome, charming person, and same with women. They're seen as the nagging spouse, the mom, the never really fixing herself up, just working at the house or whatever, and then they can go out and be seen in a different way.
Julie Morgan:
So it sounds like it's easy to put the blame on someone else, but really it's shared and I guess blame is probably a little harsh, but this is something that is shared.
Heather Quick:
I think so. I'm a blamer, I'll blame somebody in a heartbeat, and I know that about myself. So then I have to be like, maybe I'm not going to share that, but even in marriage and we joke about it, but I'm like, well, you know that's not my fault, but yet no, it probably is. And it's hard. That would be a very hard thing to be like, take some personal responsibility for parts of the marriage that aren't working. And it comes in so many different ways.
It's not that you're to blame, he's to blame, it's that we are human beings, we make mistakes, and we just hope that the mistakes we make aren't fatal. Infidelity is one of those things, that's a really hard thing to come back from. I think it really is difficult to rebuild. That's just one of the most sacred trust bonds in a marriage that either party has a hard time to overcome that, men and women without a doubt, but they can, I'm not saying they can't, but I would say yes, that is a really hard one to overcome.
Julie Morgan:
Right. Have you found possibly that it's more difficult for a man to overcome it than a woman or vice versa?
Heather Quick:
I don't know. I would bet... I think on either side, it just takes a lot of forgiveness and a lot of work on either side. But I would say that because we've all heard this, "Once a cheater, always a cheater," and who do you usually hear that out of? A woman's mouth. So I think that for us to forgive and forget, like truly forgive and move on, that would be hard. And I think with men, it's attached to their ego, their manhood, can be very hard as well in a different way.
I don't know because I've seen people who've worked through it, and then of course the majority of what we see in the divorce world is when they didn't. And I've had the people say, we did and I was able to move through it for a while, but then I just couldn't. So I think that that really depends on how much work both parties are willing to do. It's not one or the other, you know what I mean?
Because if the husband's like, I'm willing to work on it, but the wife is like, well, you go to counseling, you're the reason I did this. That's not going to help. That's not going to really repair it. And same if the husband's like, well, this is your problem, not mine. Well, it's not going to be easy to repair.
Julie Morgan:
We're talking about the top reasons that people get divorced, addiction and abuse is next. And we've done shows on this. If you haven't listened to those shows, you can go to our website, WomenWinningDivorce.com, download, subscribe, and listen.
Julie Morgan:
Addiction, this is a tough one. This is a heavy one because it's like, okay, you didn't cheat with someone, but it's so difficult to come back from.
Heather Quick:
Yes, the addiction is so difficult. I think that when you have that, you want to save that person. So I think there's that part where I can help them and there's always hope that they're going to stop drinking. They're going to stop doing drugs. They're going to stop gambling and be that person that I knew before and so that's difficult to give up on.
That's the thing that I have learned. There's a lot of, of course, great literature, therapy and stuff on the codependency and how each person does play a part. I do agree with that, but I think that when you're in a relationship where there is addiction and you’re married to someone who's an addict, you have to get to a point where you recognize I can't control what they do, whether I'm here or not.
I can think of all the reasons they should give it up and all the reasons I should stay, but that's just a hard thing to do because you're like, but I love them because usually that addiction is harder because you still love this person. But yet they can't help them, they can't get them through this or help move them over it and that hurts. They know that their spouse is not willing to give it up for them or their children and that hurts. So it's so deep, it's very difficult. I know people have struggled with leaving and how to deal with that all the time.
Julie Morgan:
And we're talking about different forms of addiction as well.
Heather Quick:
Yes, and I think some, like the ones where I say alcohol, drugs, gambling, that might be more of, you still love them, you're working through that, but there are certainly sex, pornography addictions, financial addictions, uncontrolled spending. Sometimes those you don't really have that sympathy as much because then that hurts, particularly with the pornography and sex, that's just very hurtful. And the spending, again that goes to communication and it's just like, they're lying to you. There're sneaking around and it's manipulative and you see that as of course, very hurtful, but eventually you won't stay because you just can't, you know that this is never going to stop.
Julie Morgan:
I think about this and I think about something that I heard when I was a child, "If you lie, you cheat. If you cheat, you steal..." it's this, and so you kind of feel like it's going to be this domino effect and it's just going to keep going.
Heather Quick:
Yeah, you do, and you also think, well maybe you can do something to stop it or prevent it. Once you realize you can't control another person, we have some control over our children until they get to a certain age at least, but not their behavior, they still are in control of their own behavior. Just like with this and your spouse, you can't control them. You can't control what they do and yet you want to influence them. You think that if they really loved you, they would stop but it's just beyond that.
Therefore, you have to begin to recognize what you have to do individually for yourself and/or if you have children with them, how you move through that. And I would say that one takes a lot longer for many people to leave a marriage when those things are present.
Julie Morgan:
Why?
Heather Quick:
Because, the addict, any type of addict is extremely manipulative and you get sucked in and you think you're helping them, you want to believe their lies and you do believe their lies even though you know it’s a lie. It's a web that maybe isn't a clear straight line that makes it a little more difficult. And that's not for everybody, some people may have a very hard line, they're like, nope, I gave you this chance, I left. But a lot of the circumstances that I've seen in my experiences over the years in family law, this one is just because it's emotional for both sides.
Julie Morgan:
So we have just a few minutes left for this episode. Let's talk about abuse. Abuse and addiction, do they really go hand in hand? We've talked about this, I feel, I know we have but when you see one, do you usually see the other?
Heather Quick:
It's not uncommon for them to be together, but it's not an absolute, it's really not. An addiction, you may drink, he may be a drinker and then get violent, but that's not necessarily an addict. I will say that there's distinct behavior when you have an addict, and its distinct behavior, I think that you see when you have somebody who's abusive.
Yes, I think you will see maybe drugs and alcohol involved, but that abusive person is physically, emotionally, verbally abusive. That is the primary person they are, that may just become more exemplified when they are using alcohol or drugs.
Financial abuse is about control as well and not necessarily, I would say tied to the alcohol or drugs, but you'll certainly see correlations without a doubt in those two. That's what the statistics show as well, certainly the use and that could be to that point of addiction.
Julie Morgan:
But what is something that you would say that we really need to remember when it comes to abuse and being in an abusive relationship?
Heather Quick:
Well, that staying in an abusive relationship is dangerous and unhealthy, period, for you and your children. Many women tell themselves I'm protecting the kids, if I leave then they're going to be in more danger when they have to go visit him. That is something you're telling yourself to not take action because abuse affects not only the spouse but the children, anyone in the household, and somebody has to break that cycle and you only do that by leaving.
Again, your behavior is not the reason they're acting that way. They have their own problems. They tell you, "You made me do this and this is why I'm doing this," but that's not true. Back to where some of the beginning discussions when I said a lot of the way we present in a marriage is based on what we experienced as children and growing up, because those are our first lessons of marriage.
I have said this to many women, that's what you're teaching them, period, and you're fooling yourself if you don't think that, if you deny that. You're teaching them that it's okay for a man to hit a woman, to your sons, and you're teaching your daughters, it's okay to take it.
I know that's harsh, but sometimes that's the truth and it kind of comes, like I said, full circle to what we were talking about. That's how we learn and many times we have to kind of learn to do things differently and we hope we do. I think that's something that everybody hopes for their children, that they're going to evolve beyond them and learn to do things in a better way. But you have to recognize, hey, this was great. This wasn't, this is how I'm going to grow and do better.
Julie Morgan:
Any parting words?
Heather Quick:
Well, as always Julie, to any of our listeners, struggling with any of these issues and thinking about divorce, I do encourage them to call our office at Florida Women's Law Group. We are here to help you, and we're here to help women who are ready to help themselves and move forward. And I know that sometimes they're scared, but we can help them through that.
Julie Morgan:
Heather, it's always a pleasure.
Heather Quick:
Thank you so much, Julie.
Julie Morgan:
We'll see you next time.