Heather Quick, owner & attorney of Florida Women’s Law Group, talks divorce and the female breadwinner. She discusses female breadwinners, marriage stress, divorce and the breadwinner.
Being the wife and the primary income generator is a new dynamic in marriages these days. It is not uncommon for a wife to work but when she is bringing in more than 60% of the income, she is considered the breadwinner. The implications of divorce will be very different for the wife who is the breadwinner than other wives. There is more preparation that must be made and there is potential for her to have to pay alimony and/or child support.
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"Women Winning Divorce" is a radio show and podcast hosted by Heather Quick, CEO and Owner of Florida Women's Law Group. Each week we focus on different aspects of family law to help guide women through the difficult and emotional legal challenges they are facing. Heather brings over 20 years of law experience that advocates and empowers women to achieve happier and healthier lives. Join Heather each week as she discusses family law issues including divorce, custody, alimony, paternity, narcissism, mediation and more. This program was created to provide tips and insight to women with family law issues. It is not intended to be legal advice because every situation is different. Visit us at https://www.womenwinningdivorce.com/ for more resources. Text us at 904-944-6800 for a copy of Heather's Top 5 Divorce Tips. If you have questions or a topic you would like Heather to cover, email us at marketing@4womenlaw.com
Women Winning Divorce
Episode 47
Divorce and the Female Breadwinner
Julie Morgan:
Welcome to Women Winning Divorce with your host, Heather Quick. Heather brings over 20 years of law experience that advocates and empowers women to achieve happier and healthier lives. Each week we provide knowledge and guidance on different aspects of family law to help lead women through the difficult and emotional legal challenges that they are facing. Listen in as she discusses issues including divorce, custody, alimony, paternity, narcissism, mediation, and other family law issues to provide insight on the journey of women winning divorce. Welcome to the show. I'm Julie Morgan and I'm joined by your host, Heather Quick. How you doing, Heather?
Heather Quick:
I am great. How are you, Julie?
Julie Morgan:
I'm doing very well. It's the beginning of the year. We talked about goals and that type of thing earlier. It's going to be a good 2023, don't you think?
Heather Quick:
Oh, I know it. I know it is.
Julie Morgan:
I agree. So today's topic is Divorce and the Female Breadwinner. Tell me, Heather, are there many women that are breadwinners in a marriage?
Heather Quick:
So this is interesting because the way I say it would be defined, I don't know who defines it, but whatever. For the Census Bureau, whatever it is, I don't know, the government. Whoever defines it is she's bringing in more than 60% of the income. That is what's considered the breadwinner. But I think it's a great thing to talk about because so many women are professionals, executives. As we talk about it, like equal or more maybe of what their husbands are bringing in. They’re going to have different concerns thinking about divorce than women who aren't. It's different. They're going to have a different set of concerns and fears that they want to have answers to.
Julie Morgan:
Ooh, I like that. Okay. So bringing in more than 60% of the income. Okay, that's an interesting statistic. I didn't realize that. Now, one of the reasons, and of course you don't have to have a college degree in order to bring in more money, but are more women graduating from college than men? That could be one of the reasons.
Heather Quick:
Yes. So since the '90s, women have earned college degrees at a higher rate than men. In 2019, 2020, 58% of all degrees were earned by women. But I will tell you, now, I'm just getting here we go, every now and then I got a little side bit because I do get a lot of information from my 13-year-old son, and the gamers are really where it's at and he tells me how much money they make all the time. So I don't know, but I think we can correlate the college degrees with the increase in women making more money. So I'm going to go with that despite the solid advice I've received from my son as to why he should game more often because he can bring so much money to the family.
Julie Morgan:
I was thinking, I was like, "Does he want to do YouTube and just play games on YouTube?"
Heather Quick:
I think he likes to just talk a lot. He's got all kind of ideas about a lot of things that usually end up with the request being, "Mom, buy me this." I have yet to see a return, but I am going to hold out hope.
Julie Morgan:
Oh, yeah.
Heather Quick:
There's the sneaker business, there's the gaming business. We need to go to this big gaming event. I'm like, "I'm not going there. We are not doing that. So let's go to school and let's stay on that path for a while." But anyway. Again, like we said, you can make money doing so many different things nowadays. And you know what? For women, I will say this TikTok and Instagram, there is so much. It's insane. I haven't fully embraced that, but yet... So you can be dancing. I wish I was a dancer. I know we've talked about that before. But anyway, I digress. Let's get back onto women making money, which really that's what we're all talking about.
Julie Morgan:
Yes. You know what? So I think about this. I wonder if divorce is more common when the woman earns more.
Heather Quick:
I don't know that I have the stats on that. Ooh, we do have the stats on that. So the divorce rate rise 50% when the wife earns more than her husband.
Julie Morgan:
What?
Heather Quick:
I know. You're just not going to put up with as much nonsense. I can buy somebody else for that. I don't need you leaving your socks on the floor.
Julie Morgan:
That is something. I wonder what's the reason behind that. Is it because the way it makes him feel? You know what I mean? Who cares?
Heather Quick:
I don't know. You know what I think, Julie, and this is just from, I think when you feel that you have more freedom and options, it's easier to take action. If you're like, "I can take care of myself, I would rather be alone than with you," and you feel like you have more options, maybe it's just easier to make that choice. I don't know, I don't know. I could then go on many other reasons why, but maybe when you feel like you have more options, you don't have to tolerate a lot.
Julie Morgan:
Foolishness. I'm going to say it for you, Heather. You don't have to tolerate foolishness.
Heather Quick:
There you go.
Julie Morgan:
There you go. So here's my next question. I wonder if housework is more balanced when the woman earns more. Does the man do more around the house?
Heather Quick:
What the research shows is that she's still doing more than 50% of the work at home. Whether that's cleaning, housework, shopping, things with the children. I would say, Julie, that could be in part to a couple things. I have found, my experience, that there are certain things we like to control because we know we do it better, which most everything at the house, but also the children. There may be part of that women won't relinquish as much, and I think that that is part of how you figure out that partnership. When you say, because men aren't going to naturally know, "Oh yeah, probably should vacuum," generally speaking. Or, "Maybe I should mop." No, they're never going to think that. But if you say, "I need your help doing the... You have to take these responsibilities versus me, or you've got to plan the meals and make dinner this week versus me, or..."
I think without that it's not going to happen, whereas most women who are going to naturally be a caregiver, they're just going to do it. Sometimes we just do it versus telling somebody else, "We want you to do it," and be okay with it not being perfect or the way you did it.
Julie Morgan:
Sometimes it's easier to do it as opposed to go through the stress of telling someone, "This is something that you probably need to do."
Heather Quick:
Yeah, I think that that goes into how you communicate with your partner and different things, and really knowing when you need to say, "Listen, I've got a busy week. I need you to carry this and then actually I need you to start doing this. I'm not doing this anymore." That's a very healthy thing to do, but I don't know if it always comes naturally. He may not have a spouse that's going to do it. I mean, I'll tell you, I gave up making school lunches 10 years ago. I was like, "I'm done. I don't have time." So that's my husband's job. He takes great pride in it and I'm glad. If he had to leave early one morning, I'm like, "I got it." At the end of the day he'd be like, "Who made my lunch today?" And I would look at him and I'd be like, don't admit that I made it because I slapped together some peanut butter and jelly, throw it in a baggie, and some chips, and an orange. And they're like, "Where is my Caesar salad that dad made?"
He would wrap the silverware. I'm thinking, "Wait, plasticware, like that's why I have no silverware in my house." I'm like, "Why?" Don't even get me started, but it was so apparent if mom made the lunch because I've just thrown it in the bag and there you go. Not all the time, but generally. That's why I also gave it up because they griped all the time like, "Fine, I'm not doing it anymore." Then versus his lunches or whatever, I think I did something once where I made a sandwich on a hamburger bun because we're out of bread, sometimes you're out of bread. Oh, I know you're laughing. But anyway, they would get really upset. Or hotdog bun or something, I don't know. But you're like-
Julie Morgan:
Heather, not the hotdog bun. Nope. No, ma'am. No, ma'am.
Heather Quick:
I've done it all. And that's why usually I'm like, "I didn't make your lunch today." Or you run out of baggies, so I'm like, "I just rolled up a bag of chips. There you go." But either dad doles out two cookies, a piece of candy, but he doesn't have to do hair and makeup in the morning, thank God. So he has a lot more extra time than I do in the mornings, but that isn't everybody's situation, and so I get it. It's hard, it's all a struggle, nothing's really perfect. But there's a lot of work when two people are working. It doesn't matter who's earning anymore, but if you're both getting up and going and doing stuff and there's the children, that takes a lot of management and a lot of communication, which we know when that breaks down, they end up in our office.
Julie Morgan:
Exactly. And I was thinking that that leaves a woman to feel unsupported at home, which that's when you have the conflict.
Heather Quick:
Correct. Yeah. I think that is where that happens, and it is a struggle. You have to understand things, I think, that you need at home from your spouse or from hiring somebody to clean your house. My husband used to get mad at me because, or not really, but like, "Oh, the kids aren't going to know how to do anything." I was like, "I really don't care. They do know how to do what they need to do to keep clean, but in order for me to still like the people I live with, y'all are a mess. I need somebody to clean up so that when I come home, I am not grouchy." And I'm the worst, I can spot the dirt in the mesh of the kitchen. Even though it may be a gourmet meal, I'm like, "Did you have to use every pan in the house? Really?"
But that's the way it works in our house. So, I understand that there are so many things required in running a household and then you're working, running a business. There is no such thing as balance. I think it's a kind of harmony or a way of like sometimes it's a little bit more in sync than others and it really takes both the husband and wife really working together, recognizing each other's pulls, and stressors, and working together. When that doesn't happen, and when we as women who have careers, and I'm going to say give up or we allow, which is totally not true, but that's just like we look at it that way, I think, allow our husband to take on more of the duties with the children, when the marriage is not going well, there are some men who will then use that against women. I think that's where we talk about things that have them concerned.
They're out there working and they start to feel like, "Now you're going to punish me and say you're going to take my kids away," because that's what they say to these women who are doing what they want, their purpose, working towards their career. And it's not to say they're not there with their kids, they're just saying, "Hey, maybe you can take on a little bit more," that that's where when we talk about the fear of the money on the other side, but I think most of us would realize the fear of somebody saying, "I'm going to take your kids," it's just a different level of fear and concern. But that I've heard over and over again.
Julie Morgan:
So when a woman makes more than a man and possibly that situation that you just brought up, that comes up, it makes him feel emasculated and that's something a man never wants to feel.
Heather Quick:
Very possible. Absolutely. But that has more to do really with the relationship and less to do with the woman. He is responsible for his own feelings, but you're responsible for yours. But yes, could you imagine that? I'm sure. If they want to feel that way, and I've certainly had cases in the past where the husband just stopped doing anything and didn't really want to do anything. That really does mess up a dynamic in a marriage for sure. I don't think it always has to be that way, but that requires work by both parties to understand that, but certainly. They're both going to act in a way that's going to cause resentment, anger, and conflict. Of course they will.
Julie Morgan:
Yeah. And then I also think about this situation, society, it's not like this as much, but it's still like this. There's a norm, there's a gender role. And a man that doesn't make as much money as a woman, they're looked at as less than.
Heather Quick:
I would say that that is changing a lot. I'll going to tell you, this has been a few years since we were in New York, and I'm just going to use this example because we're out here in Jacksonville at the beach it's different, we are in the city, we are in Brooklyn. I'm telling you there are dads with strollers all around the place, moms must have been out working. So, I do think that maybe it is changing. I think there's, I'm sure, positive and negative with that, but yet there's more equality in marriages nowadays than say when my parents got married and certainly my grandparents. I think that is however they balance that out, I think so. Now, I think there are certainly areas of the country where people would be like, "What?" It would be different because there's going to be cultural and areas where it's not as common. But I think we are seeing that change, so I don't buy into that as much.
I think we will because I know even though, yes, I am so young, we operate differently. I know my kids, and the 20-year-olds, and millennia. It's going to be different because they have seen it now happening for so long, they're all part of these kids, where everybody's going to school and it's not, "Women don't go to school, my mom stayed at home." Not so much of them now. In most areas, I would say that I think we're going to see that. I do think that I don't disagree with, there is a basic part of men, women, and different energies, and again, the whole Tony Robbins thing that's valid and that is true, but we as a society are seeing more of that. Men now aren't afraid to say, "Oh no, judge, I can't go to the hearing that day because I've got to pick my kid up from school," as if it's some great feat. But women would never say that.
Not when I first started 20, however plus years ago, I would never have said that. I would've felt like I would've been looked upon as weak. But now men are, "Yay. Oh wow, what a great dad," because you do those kind of things. So it's different, it's definitely different.
Julie Morgan:
You're listening to Women Winning Divorce with Heather Quick, owner and attorney of Florida Women's Law Group. Today's topic is Divorce and the Female Breadwinner. More. Stay with us.
Welcome back to Women Winning Divorce with Heather Quick, owner and attorney of Florida Women's Law Group. Today's topic, Divorce and the Female Breadwinner. So Heather, when we think about divorce for the female breadwinner, it has different implications, right?
Heather Quick:
Yeah. I mean, it does because of all the things we always talk about how money, and people think of money differently, and I think that women, we talked about in the earlier segment, they tend to carry at the very least equal responsibilities from the home. If not, they tend to do more even when they're working full-time. That has been around for a long time, those are just basic stats. Then they may have even more of a resentment about what I might have to pay him spousal support because I do everything and work. There is some of that for sure. I think that they have to kind of understand and really evaluate their situation about, because their perspective of the money is going to be a bit different.
Julie Morgan:
Okay. I'm trying to think how I can say this. Will it be a little more skewed to make them feel a certain way as in, "All of this is mine, you get nothing"? You know what I mean? Does that make sense?
Heather Quick:
It does. I think on one hand it is harder for women to think, "Wait, we are sharing this?" Versus men. I mean, they kind of know or there is this expectation, "Well, yeah, I've been supporting everybody, so I get it a little bit more." But for women, we've talked about this on alimony. I mean, I know men hate to pay alimony, but man, if a woman thinks she's going to have to pay alimony, that's something that's very difficult to stomach.
Julie Morgan:
I've said before I would love to be a fly on the wall in a court whenever you go to court, that would be a situation. I would love to be a fly on the wall, even though I know I can't and that would never happen. But it's just, I would love to hear it from their perspective. I really would.
Heather Quick:
That's something else, like where we talked in the last segment, how I do think that the roles of parents are merging and there's more of a shared responsibility within a marriage. I think we're going to see more of maybe a change as well in those expectations of husband and wife because okay. Now, I'm going to talk about, say an example where imagine that, Leave it to Beaver, whatever. She was always busy, dressed perfectly as a mom who stayed home. We know she's getting alimony, right? She's getting permanent alimony. But there is a perception that, but June Ward, I don't know, I don't really even know their names, but if the dad had been the one at home like, Oh, remember Mr. Mom. Okay. Mr. Mom, Michael Keaton, in the first half, he's on the couch getting fat, watching soap operas, eating chips.
So see, that's the perception that you try to make, which it doesn't matter really. The law says, even if you sat home and did nothing, it's still shared and you may still have to support them whether you're a man or a woman. But there's going to still be those bias that come in because judges are judges, are humans. But I'm saying that's going to go away. That may still be some of it, but not as much anymore. Because I think previously, like you said, if the husband's staying home, or what are people going to think? Society and all these things, I think that that movie came out in the '80s and that was the idea, "Oh, well, if the dad's staying home, he's just a good for nothing, whatever, laying there, being a slob." I think we're going to see a change in that from a whole society, say over the next 20 years. It's not going to be perceived the way that we can envision it was in the past.
It's not that I haven't tried to make that very similar argument in the past, and somewhat successful, but it's really just the facts and circumstances, as I've always said. But I think in the past there would be judges who'd be more open to those types of interpretations as, "Well, if the husband's not working and making money, he must be lazy, good for nothing." Versus if the mom is, she's being a mom and she's taking care of the house and doing all these other things.
Julie Morgan:
That's interesting, that's interesting. So one of the things you said, it's about the facts. So if we think about it, if you are a business owner, an entrepreneur, an executive, one of the things when you're thinking about divorce is still you have to understand the finances, right? You need to understand all of that.
Heather Quick:
Right. And not only the finances, because when we talk about divorce, we talk about alimony, splitting the assets, alimony is the core. A lot of factors go into it, the need and ability to pay. So you may have the ability to pay as the woman who's making more. What we begin to look at, does he really have the need? He makes enough, and what is he going to need? That's where that comes into it. Again, that's expenses, budget, understanding the finances. That's the job of the lawyer on either side to look at, "Well, what is that true need?"
Julie Morgan:
Oh, Heather, I just had a thought. Okay. All right, you talked about need. Okay, so when we think about child support, will he have to contribute?
Heather Quick:
Well, yeah. Child support is different, we are just talking about alimony need, and the ability to pay child support, it's very basic. If I were to tell you what matters, it's income of each party and overnights. That is what runs the day as far as how much is going to be owed or not owed, and it's really that basic. There are a lot of different things we can put into it, a lot of ways we can affect the numbers a little bit, but the biggest shift is in the numbers. So you have your income, he's his income, and then there's the overnights, and then there's going to be other things that will adjust it. But that is what we look at the most. So yes, he may, depending on what costs you cover for the children, meaning health insurance and things like that, daycare. So there's a lot of different things that come into play with that for sure.
Julie Morgan:
Okay,. And I know I kind of got sidetracked a little bit there, but I was thinking, "I know we're talking about alimony, but that also made me think about child support. If he was not the main breadwinner, will he have to pay it? So that's like a whole other show. That's exciting. Okay. So now, all right, so if we go back to finances, all the things that need to be considered, what are some of the other things besides just bank accounts? There are other major things that need to be considered as well, right?
Heather Quick:
Well, absolutely. Okay. Well, one if you own a business. That really is its own set of things that we have to determine from income benefits and the value of the business in and of itself, that's a big thing. When you are an executive, there's stock options. That's, again, a whole other show that when you look into that, it's not just cut and dry 401(k)s. There aren't as many nowadays, but some companies still have a pension, things that are a little bit different. Again, those need to be valued. Then joint assets and like we talked about, homes, second homes, any debts, anything that you know guys have acquired during the marriage. You've got to look at all of those things.
Julie Morgan:
What about before the marriage? What if she's always been a big shot? What if she's always been an executive? You know what I mean? What about before the marriage?
Heather Quick:
Well, like yourself, Julie, you're a big shot. What are you going to do before you get married? You're going to have your prenup. But if you didn't, then we need to evaluate that, and it's going to depend. Hopefully, there are some things that may not be totally non-marital, but there will be a non-marital component, and that'll be an evaluation, a mathematical one. If say she owned the house, they moved into her house, she never put his name on it, it's still her house. Maybe there is a marital component, but it's still your house. If you put his name on it or you sold it, y'all bought one together, it's all going to be marital. Your 401(k), your investments from your employment, we will do an evaluation of what was premarital. That's important because generally all that first deposits and what it started with, there's all the compound interest.
So that's a complicated mathematical evaluation, but yet very important because it will be to your benefit to show that non-marital component. Then it doesn't take it like 50/50. And even let's say you're like, "I had $100,000 in my retirement before we got married. Now it's $500,000." So simple math, that would not be the right way. You'd say, "Okay, well we going to subtract 100 from 500, that's 400, we're going to split 400." But no, when you have an actual forensic accountant, they're going to tell you, "Well, that $100,000 was responsible for an additional $200,000. Now the marital is going to be less." Anyway, like I said, to benefit that premarital part. So there's a lot that you should absolutely look at and considering, and I don't know, we probably talked about it on the show, but women are getting married later and they're entering the marriage with more than they did say traditionally 20 years ago. So it's valuable to look at that and understand it.
Julie Morgan:
Okay. So what about this? Let's think about this, this is part of your scenario. What if I owned a home before I got married, he moved in, I never put his name on the house. Would part of that be marital? Because you've had improvements in the house, he's obviously lived there. I mean, can you kick him out? Will the judge say that that's okay? That type of thing. You know what I mean?
Heather Quick:
Oh yeah, that’s where I said, okay, I would say your home is non-marital, but there's going to be a marital component, and we're going to have to do that evaluation because the mortgage payments, improvements, reduction in the debt. Yes, yes. So again, you need the attorney, and sometimes we get the forensic accountants to do it for us, but yes, it is. You want to look at it, don't just leave that on the table. At least know what that is ahead of time, and then you can make decisions based on that.
Julie Morgan:
Okay. Now, tell me this, what if, okay, so I have a business and I have treated him as an employee? That opens up a whole 'nother can of worms.
Heather Quick:
Well, okay. It could be good and bad. One, if you paid him with the W-2, that's good, because then he has evidence of earnings. Then you say, "Well, yeah, he can go get a job. Look, he made this here, so could be good." But if he didn't do anything and you paid him for that anyway, then there may be an alimony issue for sure. Yeah.
Julie Morgan:
Oh, boy. Heather, sometimes I like your answers and sometimes not so much.
Heather Quick:
I don't always like giving those answers either. I'm very pro-women, I don't want them to have to pay anything.
Julie Morgan:
But I know you always tell the truth, so I can definitely appreciate that. You're listening to Women Winning Divorce with Heather Quick, owner and attorney of Florida Women's Law Group. Today's topic, Divorce and the Female Breadwinner. We have so much more. Stay with us.
Welcome back to Women Winning Divorce with Heather Quick, owner and attorney of Florida Women's Law Group. Today's topic, Divorce and the Female Breadwinner. Heather, I was thinking about this. There's a light at the end of the tunnel. What do you think is... I mean, seriously, that's the way I look at this. I mean, how long would you really have to pay alimony to your husband? Think about men and their habits.
Heather Quick:
Yes. I mean, well, one, hopefully for as little as possible, but the good news is statistically men tend to remarry faster. So that is all you can hope for, but it doesn't have to be as dire, because again, you just need to know. I will tell you one thing about that, particularly if you're in your late 40s, early 50s, but man, you've just been killing it and you know your trajectory is only going up, but you're unhappy in your marriage, would you rather divide a smaller pot than a bigger one? At the very least, I know you're like, "Yes, yes, you agree." But again, I'm not going to make that decision for anyone. But honestly, most, and I tell that to women, and when their husband is like, I know he's going to complain about splitting everything down the middle, but based on their career trajectory, they're going to recoup it all.
When you're not that executive, you don't have that option. That's why it's so important to fight for all that. For the women, it's a no-fault state. At any time, if he wants a divorce, he can get that as well. You really want to get a divorce when you're 60, when you have an option at 40 or 50? You may not, but at least it gives you food for thought to think about it. And yes, he may remarry. And they tend to, and there is a law that will terminate alimony if they cohabitate, so if they're just living with somebody, so there are options. Men do tend to get remarried faster, so that is a plus. That is a silver lining.
Julie Morgan:
Light the end of the tunnel. I like it. Okay, Heather, wait a minute. We may have talked about this before, but a law that says, what if you cohabitate?
Heather Quick:
You can terminate alimony if the person receiving alimony is in a romantic relationship, living with somebody. I mean, that's been around now for a long time without dating myself, but it didn't use to be. I will tell you, women receiving alimony, they'd be like, "I'm not marrying you. Why would I do that and ruin my alimony? But we can live together." I think then obviously the legislation's like, "All right, that that's not cool." There is now a law, and it's a pretty tough burden, I will tell you, knowing the statute as far as how to prove it. However, we always advise our clients, "If you're receiving alimony, that is not a good idea. If they find out, they will then try to go terminate your alimony. So you need to not do that, or not get caught."
But that never happens. I'll tell you, they always know, they're writing that check every month. They are, as you would be too, inclined to be like, “if I hear something, I want to investigate that for sure." So it used to be kind of a way around it, which makes sense, but now it's like there's ways to protect yourself from that.
Julie Morgan:
With all of our topics, really, I think about it, and it all comes down to something, and we usually start off with it. Educate yourself, right?
Heather Quick:
Absolutely. In most divorces, there is money on the table to be gained, to be lost if you don't know what your options are, and you don't know what it is. I would say in all circumstances, you educate yourself. But if you're the one who is the executive, and particularly because I know that there are different fears in women, particularly with children, or with what's the debt or what's going to happen, you want answers. A lot of times you want answers that I can't give you, but at least like you said, you don't like that answer. I understand that.
That's our job as attorneys to tell you basically the truth. Maybe not necessarily what you want to know or what want to hear, but what you need to hear, what the reality is. Then you can at least make an educated decision on which way you're going to go, but you absolutely want to educate yourself, understand your options, which way things can go before you spring this on your husband. As always, I always advise that. Not everybody always follows that advice, but that's the smart way to go about this.
Julie Morgan:
So there are two people that should become your friend, a divorce attorney, and-
Heather Quick:
Your financial planner.
Julie Morgan:
Yeah, because that's going to help you get to the point where you need to be so you can make the next step.
Heather Quick:
Absolutely. A lot of folks will say, "Well, and I did this, and I did that," and your financial planner just to give you information. If you really are thinking about divorce, don't take any action, major action, before talking to the divorce attorney. "Oh, I talked to my financial planner, and so I paid off all his credit card debt." Yeah. Wouldn't have told you to do that. That’s not really in your best interest in a divorce. So they provide good information. If you want a divorce, talk to a divorce attorney and understand the legal implications and how, again, to get an advantage and how to be strategic.
Julie Morgan:
Okay. Heather, you know I want to ask a question about that, but I'm going to go on. Okay. So tell me this, would a postnup be beneficial for someone that's a boss? You know what I mean?
Heather Quick:
Heck yeah. If you can give him a reason to sign it, do it. I don't know why he would sign it, but-
Julie Morgan:
Okay. Let's explore this.
Heather Quick:
You have to look at what's in it for him, but you can't force him to sign it, Julie. I know you're thinking, "Oh, if I tell him to sign it, he's going to sign it." Well, no, it doesn’t work like that. It has to be consensual. I know you're just shocked. "What? I tell him to sign it." No. I mean, he has to have a reason that he would sign a postnup, but yes, great thing. But if you come to me saying, "I think he should sign a postnup." I'm going to say, "Well, what's in it for him? Why is he going to sign it?" If you don't know, then we're probably not going to get him to sign it.
Julie Morgan:
Okay, Heather. Okay, hold on. Okay, so tell me this. So would that be a reason, something you mentioned earlier, let's say, "Okay, I want you to sign a postnup. If you do, I'll pay off all your credit cards." I don't know. I mean, could that be a reason?
Heather Quick:
There can, yes. The most common, I will tell you, is that there's been infidelity on one side or another. This will help us bridge that trust divide that we've had, and we're going to sign this so that then I know if you cheat again, if we get a divorce, whatever, this is the way it'll end up. That would be the most common. But there could be debt things, there could be something, somebody's done and you're saying, "You know what? I think I'll give it another shot, but this is a condition, this is what I want. You have all this debt. You want me to pay it off? But if I do, I want you to sign a postnup." I think that seems like a valid thing to do.
Julie Morgan:
Oh, boy. So many places. I'm looking at the time. Okay, we don't have that much time left, so I can't go in all these different directions, but it sounds like if you're going to go in any route, as far as divorce is concerned, and we come back to this a lot too, you have to compromise. But I don't know, you don't really like that word.
Heather Quick:
But it is the reality, it is the reality. There's the difference between a smart compromise, you can still get what you want. You compromise and you've just got to see like, "what is my long-term goal, my vision, my life? How much is this going to really matter down the road?" Sometimes it will, sometimes it won't. Understand we all have emotions but making decisions that are going to help you ultimately achieve your long-term goals and outcomes. That's why I always focus on that, that's what we do. We plan a strategy for a divorce based on their outcomes and goals, because then it's easier to say, I know this makes you angry, I know this seems unreasonable, but if we compromise here, you can still get from A to Z.
What if that takes three months longer than you really hoped, but yet you're still going to get what you want. Then that doesn't hurt as much. Then you can be like, "You're right. There's our feelings I have, but I see the light at the end of the tunnel and I know where I want to get." That is ultimately the best way we can guide clients through a divorce.
Julie Morgan:
So treat this as a business transaction. You're an entrepreneur, you are the breadwinner. Treat this as a business transaction.
Heather Quick:
Absolutely. You have to give a little to get a little sometimes. Generally, each of you wants different things, so there's a way to still win a divorce, but maybe there's a compromise because you're getting what you want. You're not making him lose, you're getting where you want to be. Ultimately that's your freedom, and it's to go on with your life in a better and healthier fashion.
Julie Morgan:
Well, okay. I kind of want to go back to the postnup thing. I have a feeling that you don't get too many men walking into your office to sign a postnup. I'm not asking you to answer that, but I just have that feeling. I wonder how common it is in general.
Heather Quick:
It's probably more on the minority, but it's an option. The more that people understand it's an option, and it's a way for both folks to achieve an outcome they want, it works. It's a great tool to know that exists may work in certain situations.
Julie Morgan:
Yeah, it's an option. It's an option.
Heather Quick:
It's an option. Yeah.
Julie Morgan:
Yeah. Okay.
Heather Quick:
Absolutely.
Julie Morgan:
Yeah. So is it possible that she may feel like or realize that, "You know what, I like my life after divorce and this was the right way to go"?
Heather Quick:
I find most people do. It's a difficult thing as we know. Under any and all circumstances, there is a period of sadness, anger, all those emotions. If you are able to see the positive and the opportunities outside of it, I think that most people do. Ideally, they learn from it. They learn who they were in that relationship and they take the good, but they understand what parts of that didn't work well and learn from it. We all want to learn from our experiences, and some of us have to learn by experiences more than reading in a book, myself included. I think that we talk about whether you're either moving forward and growing or not. If this is the path, when the marriage has to end, try to go through it gracefully, intelligently, and strategically.
Julie Morgan:
Any parting words?
Heather Quick:
Well, as always, Julie, for any of our listeners who this resonates with, who have questions and think that they may be in need of some advice, and going through a divorce, please reach out to us at Florida Women's Law Group where you can also find a lot of information on our site, but also Women Winning Divorce, all of our prior episodes, which we touch on just about everything over the past year. So please reach out for you or someone you know because we are absolutely here to help you.
Julie Morgan:
Heather, it is always a pleasure for the final time.
Heather Quick:
Aw, thank you so much, Julie. It has been great and happy New Year to you.
Julie Morgan:
Thank you for listening to Women Winning Divorce. We hope you found information to help you navigate your divorce. If you like our show, please take the time to subscribe and provide a five-star review. If you need more information, please visit our website at womenwinningdivorce.com, where you will find previous episodes and other helpful content. Join us next week as we continue our journey of Women Winning Divorce.