You see the evolution of the woman before you… they come out a completely different person.”- Cat Georges, Esq. “Trial is important for their voice to be heard”- Cat Georges, Esq. In this week’s episode, Heather Quick, attorney and owner of Florida Women’s Law Group, discusses Preparing for Trial with an attorney Catheline “Cat” Georges, an attorney with Florida Women’s Law Group. Learn the steps to prepare for trial and what to do during trial.
About Our Guest
Catheline “Cat” Georges has handled cases addressing a broad array of legal matters, including family law cases, Chapter 7 bankruptcy cases, and estate planning cases. She is actively involved with the Meninak Club and currently serves on the Communications Committee for the Junior League of Jacksonville, which strives to help women and children in the local community through philanthropy, fundraising, volunteerism, and educational outreach. Cat is the daughter of Haitian immigrants. She is bilingual in English and Haitian Creole. Outside of her legal career, you can find Cat enjoying a Step Aerobics class.
Cat’s Social Media Links:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/catheline-j-georges-30b421156/
Official website: https://www.floridawomenslawgroup.com/attorneys-catheline-georges/
"Women Winning Divorce" is a radio show and podcast hosted by Heather Quick, CEO and Owner of Florida Women's Law Group. Each week we focus on different aspects of family law to help guide women through the difficult and emotional legal challenges they are facing. Heather brings over 20 years of law experience that advocates and empowers women to achieve happier and healthier lives. Join Heather each week as she discusses family law issues including divorce, custody, alimony, paternity, narcissism, mediation and more. This program was created to provide tips and insight to women with family law issues. It is not intended to be legal advice because every situation is different. Visit us at https://www.womenwinningdivorce.com/ for more resources. Text us at 904-944-6800 for a copy of Heather's Top 5 Divorce Tips. If you have questions or a topic you would like Heather to cover, email us at marketing@4womenlaw.com
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Women Winning Divorce podcast series https://www.womenwinningdivorce.com/
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This program was created to provide tips and insight to women with family law issues. It is not intended to be legal advice because every situation is different.
Heather Quick:
Welcome to Women Winning Divorce. I am your host, Heather Quick. I'm an attorney, entrepreneur, author and founder of Florida Women's Law Group, the only divorce firm for women by women. I love thinking big, thinking outside the box, creating creative solutions for women and empowering women to win in all aspects of their life. In each episode of this show, I will discuss how to navigate the divorce process, come out stronger and empowered on the other side.
Welcome to Women Winning Divorce. Each week we discuss issues including divorce, custody, alimony, paternity, narcissism, mediation, and other family law issues to provide insight on the journey of women winning divorce. I'm Heather Quick, owner and attorney of Florida Women's Law Group. Today, it is my pleasure to have Kat George with us. She is an attorney here at Florida Women's Law Group and I am so happy to have her on the show and as you get to hear her and her perspective on things, you will understand why we are so happy to have her here today. Welcome, Kat.
Kat George:
Thank you for having me, Heather.
Heather Quick:
Absolutely. Now Kat is a passionate advocate with experience in family law here in Florida. So Kat, before we get started, I'd like to let our audience know a little bit more about you and what brought you to family law and most importantly, what keeps you practicing family law?
Kat George:
So family law, and I have an interesting relationship. I always say that family law chose me. Initially when I went to law school or even before I went to law school, as soon as I graduated, I worked at a immigration firm in Miami, Florida. So the entire time I said I was going to do immigration law. Graduated, came back hoping to do immigration law, nothing bit with regard to immigration law, but family law bit me. So I've been in family law ever since. And with me being in family law, I appreciate it more and more because you see the evolution of the woman before you. They generally come into you very despondent, depressed, unhappy about the situation. And then with us working together and even giving them different tools, they come out a totally different person. So it's not necessarily the legal work that gives me the hoo rah, it's the fact that I see this woman evolve from who she was to what she is now.
Heather Quick:
I so appreciate that, Kat, because I've heard you say that before and even in some of our team meetings that our clients can't really see it as clearly as we can because they're in it and we can see this change that is quite satisfying and quite inspiring to watch these women go through this. Right?
Kat George:
Exactly.
Heather Quick:
And also just for our audience to know because of course here at Florida Women's Law Group, we represent women only. But you didn't start out that way, but you decided to, "hey, this is the right way." Right?
Kat George:
I agree. 'Cause when you know better, you do better. And so now that I know and I can do better, I understand that representing women is more so my passion than representing anyone else.
Heather Quick:
Ugh, love you. See guys, don't love her? I tell you what, but it's true. And Kat has really, in the couple of years that she has been with the firm, I've seen that of all because I see her passion with our clients and the way you care because that's what makes us so different, I think in many ways because we really do care and we really get excited for our clients when we watch them grow.
Kat George:
Exactly. And then you get upset when an opposing council tries to take advantage of them. So that all goes hand in hand.
Heather Quick:
It does. And therefore that gives us that passion and that energy to keep going because we believe so much in our clients.
Kat George:
Exactly.
Heather Quick:
And what is possible for them. So today we are talking about preparing for trial, which to non-lawyers might sound boring, but to us of course, we can talk for days about this I'm sure, to much of people's disappointment. However, for us it's so important to be prepared for trial. Would you agree?
Kat George:
Absolutely. And I think trial's not only important for them to be prepared, but also for their voice to be heard as well.
Heather Quick:
And that's a big thing that as we know, doesn't happen as often as I think our clients believe it will happen. Correct?
Kat George:
That is very correct.
Heather Quick:
Talking to the judge and being heard. And I think for all human beings, when you have something to say and you believe that you want to be heard, it becomes really important even in this venue where it's not necessarily designed--
Kat George:
Exactly.
Heather Quick:
For our clients just to have a free rein and tell them what they think, right?
Kat George:
Right.
Heather Quick:
I mean, I've mentioned this several times on the show and it's just because the reality is when we're watching TV and watching the legal shows, and I do that, I love it. I watch Law and Order all the time, and I've seen everything for the past like 30 something years. But I mean that the criminal law, it's not the divorce case. However, they can commit the crime, investigate the crime, and then go to court and finish a trial within 16 minutes. And it sets unrealistic expectations, right?
Kat George:
Absolutely.
Heather Quick:
And that's with commercial breaks, right?
Kat George:
Absolutely.
Heather Quick:
It's fair for the general public out there to be like, "well, what do you mean a year? We should wrap this up really quickly."
Kat George:
Exactly.
Heather Quick:
And there's always an exciting outburst in a trial that doesn't really happen in our day-to-day trials, right?
Kat George:
Absolutely. It's a totally different experience. And what we're getting on television is basically a microwave version of what's actually going on in real life.
Heather Quick:
And a more exciting dramatic version. Otherwise we wouldn't watch it, right?
Kat George:
True. I wouldn't say that family law is not without its dramatics, but it's a different level and it's a more so personal level, which is why we feel so attached more so to family law and opposed to what we see on television with the criminal aspect.
Heather Quick:
I completely agree with you, and one of the things, even before we get into preparing for trial, I think particularly in where we are in Florida, northeast Florida, but in Florida, how a family law trial even works because it's nothing like TV. We're not in a courtroom with the jury, right?
Kat George:
Exactly. No, we're not. We're essentially just in a hearing room before the judge.
Heather Quick:
Which is very unnerving. And I will tell you because I started in criminal law, and I'll tell you it's a big deal what table you get because the right side, which I was a prosecutor, is always closer to the jury. And we're not like looking at opposing counsel. We're on opposite sides, good and evil.
Kat George:
Correct.
Heather Quick:
And so in family law, same thing. I'm like, I figure I'm on the good side and the evil side, not really, but little bit. But it's hard. The very first time I went into those hearing rooms we're all at the same table.
Kat George:
Exactly.
Heather Quick:
And that can be something that I know our clients don't expect because we're looking not only at the other attorney, but harder for our clients, they got to look at their husband the whole time.
Kat George:
And that's part of the trial preparation. You let them even know that. And so even with COVID, things converted over to Zoom. And so that was also a difficult thing as well because just because you're not in the same space, you don't necessarily want to be eye to eye with the person on the other side. So that is part of the trial preparation because it is unnerving, but we work together hand in hand to be able to at least accomplish what we want to accomplish.
Heather Quick:
Yes, and part of that is as I've matured over these many years of doing family law, trying to make it, I get it. When there's the judge, the judge doesn't wear a robe, the judicial robe, I mean they're dressed in a suit. But there there's an almost, and I think it's a false sense of informality in this hearing room because we're not in the big courtroom with a witness stand and the judge in the room.
Kat George:
Correct.
Heather Quick:
But yet it is, we still have to follow all the formalities of the court and evidentiary procedure as well as civil procedure.
Kat George:
And just something even as simple as presentation when you're coming to the courtroom, even though it's a hearing room, you're going to be dressed differently to give that sort of reverence to the court, even though it's at the traditional thing that you would see on television.
Heather Quick:
Yes. And I will say though, it does vary because there are some judges here, not in formality or dress. No. We always want to look our best of course, and be dressed professionally, but some of our courtrooms here in different counties, they are in a courtroom. And actually I prefer that. I think that it lends itself to all participants really stepping it up a level when you have to go to a witness stand, and I like to stand when I speak. And so when you're in more of a traditional courtroom, you can stand up and speak.
Kat George:
That's a very good point because you can take into account the area, be able to maneuver around as well. So that is a good point. With regard to the hearing rooms, you're not standing at all, you're sitting the entire time.
Heather Quick:
And that can be a long day or two days or a whole week. I can tell you, you're like, "I wish I could just walk around and talk." So I think number one, when we were talking about preparing for trial, that's the first thing we got to talk to our client about because we know based on where they are, "hey, this is the setting you're going to walk into."
Kat George:
Correct.
Heather Quick:
And how we prepare them for that, right?
Kat George:
Yes.
Heather Quick:
And when we talk about the first steps to preparing for trial, one, we want our clients to understand, "hey, this is what you're looking at as far as the day, two days, no matter how much time we have together, but we need your input," because our clients know their spouse, their children much better than we do, and we really have to have that involvement so that we're able to accomplish their goals. Wouldn't you agree?
Kat George:
Absolutely.
Heather Quick:
And when we're wanting that, Kat, what are some of the things that you talk to your clients about when, "hey, we're going to trial, we didn't resolve this case." What are some of the things? Because I know they're anxious.
Kat George:
Definitely. And so with regard to trial details are extremely important. So one of the first questions I like to ask is, what's the worst thing that he could possibly say about you? And then we can just get that out the way because then if we know what's the worst thing that we can say about you, then we won't be blindsided later on with regards to evidence or a topic that we weren't prepared for. So we like to deal with the worst first, and then from there we get additional information from them with regard to, like you said, their spouse, the kids, all those small nuances that I'm not going to know that's particular to your family. Then from there, once I get that information from you, the next step is getting some financial documents from the client.
Heather Quick:
Yes, and of course we've done that way earlier in the case, but we're always needing updated information.
Kat George:
Correct, 'cause like you were saying beforehand, a trial can take a year, so the documents that we had in the beginning of your case might be stale in comparison to the documents that we need at trial. So we need some updated documents for that.
Heather Quick:
Yes. Now witnesses, because I know you've heard me say this, I'm going to court to win, therefore we need to know what we got to have in order to win, which usually includes witnesses.
Kat George:
People think you need an expert witness. Your neighbor can be your witness, your sister can be your witness. So your witnesses can encompass several different types of aspects with regard to your own personal life. And that just jumps back to what we were saying, we need as much information with regard to your spouse and your children and those other individuals who also have that relationship. And then you'll be able to provide that to us.
Heather Quick:
Exactly. And that's why if you are in this situation, your attorney has to know these things and we'll tell you, "okay, you gave me a list of five names," which to me that's better than no names. And then we have to bring it down. Well, what are our issues? Because that's, I think, big part of trial preparation and knowing. It's identifying these are the issues that we need this court to decide. All right, well, what evidence, meaning is it a witness? Is it documentation? That the court needs to decide in our favor on this issue.
Kat George:
Exactly.
Heather Quick:
So that's why it might be the neighbor, it might be the family member. And what I always like to say first that our client is, "well, what do you think they're going to say?" And because we all, I'm guilty of it always, this is what I heard that person say, but we need to talk to them because we're certainly not calling witnesses that we haven't spoken with, right?
Kat George:
Exactly.
Heather Quick:
Because we don't want them to harm you because even though you think they might say something one way, we have to interview them and we really need to hear from them what their recollection is and then we can as your attorney determine, I think this'll help. I don't think it'll hurt, right? Because that's going to be the worst. It might help.
Kat George:
Exactly.
Heather Quick:
But we don't want anybody on there who's going to hurt you.
Kat George:
Absolutely. And that's part of the trial prep. So not only us getting the updated documentation and meeting with the witnesses, we need to actually prep and hear what the witnesses have to say because if they're going to say something that's adversarial to us or maybe not even slightly beneficial, we want to use that time more efficiently.
Heather Quick:
And we will talk about time later in the show for sure. Because that's one thing I know that really shocks many people. And we talked about it at the beginning, a little bit of timing with me making the joke about TV in that hour long. However, the amount of time that we do get is something we got to talk about because you have to be efficient.
Kat George:
Exactly.
Heather Quick:
With that time for sure. So we will definitely touch on that. And something else I want to talk about, and we'll touch on it a little bit after the break, is those text messages, emails, and my favorite voicemails, hopefully not from our client, but definitely someone else, right?
Kat George:
Right.
Heather Quick:
Because those can be very powerful if they're helpful on an issue. So we'll be right back after the break with Kat George and could continue talking about trial preparation.
Thank you so much. In the first part of the show, we started to talk about trial prep and really address a lot of essentials, which is the client for this patient, witnesses and gathering the documents that we may use for evidence and we may need for evidence. And part of that, this is something that ka I'd love for you to explain because I know it's always difficult, I think for our clients to really understand about the deadlines the judge sets for when you can have this evidence. We started to talk about the text, the emails, the voicemails.
Kat George:
Exactly.
Heather Quick:
Explain to our listeners what this means, these deadlines and why they're so important.
Kat George:
Well, the demos are important so that both parties are put on notice with regard to what the other side is providing. So at the pretrial conference, the judge's going to set a deadline for all of us to provide our discovery, our discovery's going to include those updated documents we talked about, the text messages, the voicemails and the emails. And then with us then providing those documents, they're even going to give us a deadline with regard to what witnesses that we want to be able to testify at the hearing. So with the pretrial order, it gives us essentially a deadline for all of us to put not only the other side, but the court on notice of what documents we'll have and how the trial will proceed forward.
Heather Quick:
Yes, and as somebody who at heart, at times, I'm a procrastinator, right?
Kat George:
Aren't we all? Sometimes.
Heather Quick:
I think that this is because I get it and I understand where people are coming from because as they look at more information and they know it's coming up, we know the deadline is there. The real trial can't really turn off the brain on, "oh, what if this happened, this happened. Let me search this." And so now we get inundated as the attorneys with a lot of information and we're getting very close to the deadline. And that makes it more difficult for us as your attorney to make sure we have the right information by the deadlines because we have to review it all, right? And determine, is this relevant? Is there a downside to submitting this because maybe it's only one half of a text or email exchange and they bring the other one. But I know our clients, as it gets closer and closer, they just start remembering and they're trying to pull everything together because they recognize that the trial's a big deal.
Kat George:
It is a big deal. And so that's why, at least with our firm, which I appreciate, we don't wait until a month or so before the document are due. As soon as we get the order from the judge, we're already working collaboratively to get together to get all those documents. Because you're right, memory fades. You remember something Tuesday and then you forgot about it Thursday. So with us collecting everything, then we have time to review it because once that deadline hits, nothing else is admissible. We can't just say, "hey, I forgot about this," it's done.
Heather Quick:
Right, and that I know can be so upsetting for many clients because they're like, "well, what about this and what about this?" And I know that we spend a lot of time and we ask very specific questions about issues. And do you have any evidence? Because we're not going to know, do you have a video, voicemail, text or email but we're going to say, ""do you have anything that is going to help us? And you got to give us enough time because the judge may not let it come in if you're bringing it on the day of trial.
Kat George:
Exactly.
Heather Quick:
You're probably not going to be allowed to bring that in.
Kat George:
Exactly.
Heather Quick:
And particularly in a divorce case because, and this relates because the majority of individuals before ever going through a divorce, their only understanding of trial and cases like that is from TV and movies. I mean, it just is. And criminal cases are just different. There's more at stake, frankly, under the constitution because it's due process and your liberty. So sometimes if you'll watch on those shows, they let a lot of stuff happen. But remember it is TV versus the divorce and everybody should know everything ahead of time document wise, and our laws require us to exchange it all. So there isn't that ambush, right?
Kat George:
Right. Not that gotcha moment that we're hoping to see, that you see on television. We've already provided it to the other attorneys. We've already provided it to the court with regard to what documents that we need. But like I said beforehand, we don't start waiting until a month before trial. Frankly, as soon as you walk into the door, we're essentially preparing for trial if we're not able to come to an agreement at mediation. So some documents you might have given it to us or some video recordings or text messages you might have given to us when you walked in day one. And then as part of our preparation, we're already compiling those. And then we're asking you what additional things you have for us.
Heather Quick:
Right, and that's why it's important is because I know many times you can tell me if you've had this experience where our clients feel like, "well, they haven't provided this documentation. Why do we have to do it?" And frankly, it's because we're going to follow the rules of evidence in law and what the court said in order to get that advanced. And if they're not going to follow the rules, we're going to argue that their stuff shouldn't be brought in. Right?
Kat George:
Absolutely. We would object to those on them bringing in that documentation, but the better prepared we are, the better we'll be able to represent you. So our representation isn't based on what the other side does or does not do. Our representation is based on our relationship, which is why then we want to make sure we're as prepared as possible. Probably to the point you might be annoyed and say, "Kat, please stop asking for more documentation." I'm going to say, "well, we need to win this. I'm going to ask you for it. And I'm okay if you're mad at me at this." But then six months down the line, you're going to be like, "oh, maybe I was a little too hard on Kat. Thank you, Kat." And that's really what I want. That's that whole evolution that I enjoy with regard to family law.
Heather Quick:
And I think that that's such a good point because the more prepared you are, the less bumps in the road you have, but then it just goes so much smoother and you're just so much more prepared to present the case. And part of that is something we don't always have a deposition in every case prior to trial, but we do give our clients a script of like, "hey, this is it," so that they understand where we're going with the questions. Right?
Kat George:
Right.
Heather Quick:
And you know what that does, I learned that many, many years ago and some of my family law trials have been very big trials, but the more witnesses you have, I would have files for the witnesses and they're five to ten pages of questions, but then I know if they're out of order or whatever. We're ready. But then it also allows the client to understand the flow, right? Because we don't want our client at trial being like, "oh, I don't know. I don't remember that." They need to know what's coming as far as questions.
Kat George:
Right, and then when we get to trial, we're at trial. That's the end of it. So the beauty of depositions, it's another discovery mechanism. And so you don't ever want to ask a question and you're not prepared for the answer. So depositions allow you to ask the question, know what the answer will be. So when you get to trial, you understand where the conversation is going. So that's one of our ways to prepare so that we're not essentially at trial being blindsided. And I always like to use this slogan, you don't have to get ready if you stay ready. And so depositions, discovery, all these other things, that's us staying ready and not waiting till the last minute to get ready.
Heather Quick:
And that's so true. And then we can also anticipate more obviously the other arguments on the other side and really where our obstacles will be and "hey, this is going to be the issue." We can tell our clients this is going to be an issue that the judge is going to have competing evidence on. And so that's why this is so important. And that's why, to your point, I keep asking you for more information because we're wanting to be solid on whatever this point may be. And also with the deposition, sometimes we do that. Well, we always do it with experts because it's so very important to get that information from them. But it's also almost like a way for them to get ready for what it will be like during a trial, which is a lot of questions that are to the point and telling the story. It's best to be chronological to draw it out so that the court clearly can understand what you're trying to say because our client can't just go in there and just talk.
Kat George:
Right. 'Cause we have to be efficient with our time.
Heather Quick:
We do. Let's talk about that timing, because you learn this over the years and when you're in a trial, and even if they give you the whole day, all right, if you're lucky you're starting at 9:00 AM. There's going to be breaks and a lunch and they're going to be done at five. Some judges back in the day would let us stay and would carry on till after dark. But that doesn't happen as often. But I think what I try to explain to clients, we have four hours, the first hour is everybody's saying hello, introducing themselves, and before you know it, the time just flies by. Right?
Kat George:
Exactly. And so that's one of the aspects of the pretrial order. The pretrial order is going to tell us how long the trial is. It's going to be a full day, is it going to be two days? And then even then with us exchanging the discovery, part of the benefit of us doing that in advance is that we can agree, "oh, we're going to agree to introduce this discovery. We're not going to agree to introduce this," so then we're more efficient with our time. But you'd be surprised how much four hours goes by because realistically, this two hours for me, excuse me, and two hours for the other side. So that goes by pretty quickly. And so that's another aspect of why we want to have a good flow in chronological order so that we're using our time efficiently during trial.
Heather Quick:
Yes. Because when we say there's a day, but half of that is for our presentation. And it's such a timing thing. And it really is important to get what you need in front of the judge to be heard within that time. Because our time is so valuable and, certainly earlier in my career, we'd be like, "oh, we'll get it done quicker." And courts would be mad because they're like, "okay, you have three witnesses. There's absolutely no way this entire hearing will get done in four hours." Which I know is mind-boggling to most people. They're like, "four hours is a long time."
Kat George:
Not at all.
Heather Quick:
There's objections and then argument. I mean, sometimes it can just go on forever it seems.
Kat George:
Yes.
Heather Quick:
And we're not really moving forward. And that's why it's just so important to understand. That's why we spend so much time with you as the client and help you understand the pros and cons to maybe things that you want to say to the court. But what we're trying to tell you is that won't really advance your issue. And yes, the judges, I think in family law understand to some extent that people want to be heard, but they're not going to put up with a lot of nonsense.
Kat George:
Absolutely. And just to be frank, it's going to be hard to get 20 years down in two days. It's going to get hard to get 10 years down within two day trial. And so we still want your voice to be heard, but we also want to give you our expertise with regard to how your voice will best be heard. Some small other things might not help progress your case forward or progress our point forward but something else will. So it's unfortunate, but at the same time it is fortunate because then the court's not there for weeks on end. We're able to deal with this within two days, within a day, but efficiently still be able to progress your case forward or finalize the matter and still give you the opportunity to have your voice heard.
Heather Quick:
Yes. And it's a balance. It's a balance of so many variables and time being one of them and enough opportunity for the evidence to be heard. And for both sides, it's so often that the judge will say, "all right, we got six hours here. How long are you taken?" I mean, I've been in front of some hearing officers and judges who are really keeping a tight clock and they're like, "you've already used an hour." Now let me make it an hour of your time to finish questioning. So it is really a management of time, evidence. It takes so much to really make sure we're maximizing our time so that the court hears what they need to hear and our evidence gets entered.
Kat George:
Yes.
Heather Quick:
And one thing, I don't know if people think about this or not, but how important it's to have a court reporter.
Kat George:
Yes. Because the beauty of a court reporter is our memory fades, but the court reporter will essentially type up everything that's said during the hearing. Even a sneeze. They'll type up everything. So then if we ever need to go back on something, because at the end of the day, sometimes judges make errors, we want to be able to look back on that transcript to say, "oh, this is where the error occurred." Or even just to point out something, we have that transcript. So basically for all my hearings, even a 15-minute hearing, I have a court reporter there just so that we can preserve the record if anything else in the future occurs.
Heather Quick:
And that sometimes, not everybody really understands that, but it's important because that's the only way to truly record what has happened.
Kat George:
Exactly.
Heather Quick:
All right. So we're going to take our next break, and when we come back, let's talk about all the dos and don'ts for clients actually during the trial. All right, Kat?
Kat George:
Yes.
Heather Quick:
All right. Well, we are back for our last segment. And we are still talking about trial preparation with Kat George, an attorney at Florida Women's Law Group. And we're getting to our favorite part of trial preparation. And that is, hey, how do you to act during trial? Because again, that doesn't come naturally and we take it all very seriously and we go through a lot here, not go through a lot, but we make sure you're very well aware of what to do and what not to do. Right, Kat?
Kat George:
Yes.
Heather Quick:
And the biggest thing that I think is helpful for everybody to remember is that you do need to make a good impression because first impressions matter.
Kat George:
Yes.
Heather Quick:
And our judges are human beings, right?
Kat George:
Absolutely.
Heather Quick:
So they're going to observe all kind of stuff, right?
Kat George:
Everything.
Heather Quick:
Everything, which lets start with your appearance.
Kat George:
Yes. First and foremost, it's still a courtroom. Even though we might be in a hearing room. So you still dress professionally, you'll wear a suit, male or female, and just present yourself in a way that you let the court know that not only do you understand where you are, that it's serious, but you also respect the courtroom. So jeans and a ball cap. Absolutely not.
Heather Quick:
And that, again, it's having respect for the proceeding.
Kat George:
Yes.
Heather Quick:
We don't have to like your spouse, you can have your own opinions of the court and to yourself, but you need to be there and understand that it's a serious matter. And what I know I've said before, but this person, we are in front of this judge, and they can put you in jail.
Kat George:
Yes.
Heather Quick:
You got to take these people seriously. Right?
Kat George:
Yes. That's one thing about the television shows that's true.
Heather Quick:
Yes, it's true. And even the lawyers, right? I mean if it got out of hand, I mean they have that power. And when you're entering a situation where somebody has that much power over you, you need to take it seriously.
Kat George:
I agree. And then the sensitivity of the matter is, no matter what with the divorce, we're separating an institution or we're going to be sharing children. And so the situation is already sensitive enough that we just want to make sure we're respecting the entire process and really putting our best foot forward.
Heather Quick:
Indeed. And with that, let's talk about emotions because it's hard in anything that affects your life, your children, your money, it can be emotional and that you just need to understand that and be very aware because whether it's extreme sadness or extreme anger, that's not going to bode well for you.
Kat George:
No. And I can go to, I don't know, Cuba, Jamaica, wherever, and I be able to speak the language, but I'll be able to communicate via body language. So I just say the importance of body language is 10. Because even if you're verbally not saying anything, the judge can see if you're ruling your eyes, the judge can see if you're shrugging your shoulders or the judge can see if you're kind of squinting to the side of your eyes just upset. So granted, I do believe you're entitled to that emotion because if someone is saying something about me that I don't feel is true, of course I'd be offended. Absolutely so. But with regard to the case and the fact that we have a strategy we prepared for this and we have a goal at the end of all of this, we want to make sure that we control our nonverbal communication because no matter what, that's still a form of communication to the judge.
Heather Quick:
Exactly. And you don't want, I guarantee you to anyone listening, you don't want to be the one in that courtroom when the judge says, "excuse me, ma'am or sir, stop rolling your eyes. I'm watching you, and you need to cut it out." That's just mortifying.
Kat George:
It is.
Heather Quick:
As adults going through life, you're not used to being somewhere where someone will tell you what to do and you better listen. Right? And we don't really want our clients to be in that position.
Kat George:
Right, and it does hurt the morale if you feel like you've been admonished by the judge. And I definitely don't want that to happen to any one of my clients. So that's why that's part of our trial prep, us meeting, preparing, and even just discussing all those things. And even sometimes with me, they'll say, "oh, I can't believe he's saying that. How rude," and have a look. And I'm like, "well, you can talk to me about that. Absolutely. You can even have that look with me. Absolutely. But when we're before the judge, absolutely not."
Heather Quick:
That's right. And I'll tell you, in a situation where children are involved, this stuff is 10 times more important.
Kat George:
Exactly.
Heather Quick:
If it's just money, I mean the judge is going to make a decision on money and they're not going to be as concerned if you don't like the other person. They really aren't.
Kat George:
Right.
Heather Quick:
It's clear. But man, when you are sharing minor children, man, these judges pick up on this stuff and it'll hurt you. It does. It just hurts you because they don't think there's enough respect. And you're not going to really maybe do the things the judge is going to order in communicating with the kids. And I've just seen it gone in terrible ways. It can.
Kat George:
Right. Because for the court, it's always what's in the best interest of the children. And if we have parents who can't even work at co-parenting before the judge, they're going to assume "when I'm not around, can you imagine the way they'll co-parent now?" And so that's why it's also important in those non-verbal cues and communications, just go beyond your support room. It can also affect the order that comes about from the hearing.
Heather Quick:
Absolutely. And so, okay, we're in the trial. I'm going to talk about a couple of things because we all have stories. So one thing is you better silence your phone or just don't bring it.
Especially if you're not tech-savvy. And I'll tell you, for everybody out there listening, the judges are a lot nicer and softer than they used to be. And that's not because I'm old. I started practicing at a very young age. However, it's just different and that I'm sure it's good, I don't know. But I had a client and I mean this is before iPhones, okay? I'm pretty sure this was before iPhones, so that is dating myself. But it was difficult for her to turn off and it wouldn't stop. And I swear that judge was about to take her into custody.
Kat George:
Oh, my.
Heather Quick:
He had a very short fuse. And so if you don't know how to work it, please don't bring it. And that's a big deal. And this hasn't ever happened to me, but I've heard judges talking about it where somebody is texting during the trial.
Kat George:
Oh my.
Heather Quick:
That's bad. That's so bad. I mean, they're going to see it. I think that's where it's like, don't act like a teenager because teenagers think we're not going to know anything. They know what what's going on, right?
Kat George:
Right.
Heather Quick:
And you're going to lose so much credibility if you do that. And so then now there was no need to do that. And the judge had you both coming in on even playing field and you do stuff like roll your eyes, texting somebody or on your phone, all of a sudden their opinion of you is going to change. I don't think it's going to change the application of the law at all. However, if there's a reason, if maybe they don't trust you as much now when you say something.
Kat George:
Not saying that they're going to be biased because of that one aspect, but if there are other things that were said during trial, that could just be the icing on the cake. So we definitely don't want any sort of texting because even frankly we spoke about earlier, a trial could take all day, two days. So there're going to be breaks. So even between those breaks, we shouldn't be texting because it's still a confidential proceeding. So that can also affect us in other aspects. So absolutely no cellular devices.
Heather Quick:
And this leads into the telling the truth. Oh my god.
Yes. We are telling the truth in there. And if there's something that you're really afraid of telling the truth about in trial, you ought to tell your attorney way before trial so that maybe we can settle it and avoid a situation where you are under oath. But the court, they're very good at reading people. And typically your spouse knows a lot about you, just like you do about him. Lying never ends. Well, it's never a good idea. I feel like they're going to figure it out and it's better to be upfront and maybe explain why something occurred then trying to lie and cover it up.
Kat George:
Absolutely, candor, truthfulness, that's all very, very, very, very important to the court. And if the court sees that you're not truthful, that can essentially go towards their ruling and they'll essentially include it. Like this person lacked candor, was not forthright. So we never want that to occur. So that's why from step one, when we're preparing for trial, we say, "what's the worst thing that he can say about you?" And so once we know that we're prepared for it, and if it does come up, we're going to be forthright with regard to it. We might have done some rehabilitation since that occurrence, since that event transpired then. So we give the court, "yes, we did this, but we've done this to rectify it." So no matter what we want to be as truthful as possible.
Heather Quick:
Yes, you can't say it enough. It's so important because they're just going to know and it's not worth it under any circumstances. And same with your attorney. For anybody listening, you put us in a really bad spot if I know you've lied because we have obligations to the bar, to the court and to the client. And it's never ever worth it. It's just never worth it because then your attorney has some obligations as far as what we have to do if we are well aware you're lying.
And now I want to go to this because I think it does have to go to telling the truth and taking breaks. If you're in the middle of your testimony, we can't tell you what to say. We can't say, "you're doing a good job, just follow it." But there's a lot of gray area and things could be misinterpreted. So it's really important that you understand and listen to your attorney when we're like, "we can't talk about this right now. Take a breath, take a break and go back and remember what we told you."
Kat George:
Right.
Heather Quick:
So one of the things, because we've all had things that happened, but which will tell because I think that they're helpful for individuals to understand. But one of the things that I have always done for our clients is bring a pad of paper and a pen. And I was like, "and I don't need you writing furiously, I just need you to occupy yourself." Because again, the way with which you do everything is being observed. But you know, I think that all clients and what you need to understand is when you're in a trial, we are your attorney and we are doing so many things at one time that you're nudging our arm to tell us something is not okay.
Kat George:
Right.
Heather Quick:
Also sticky notes. I do give sticky notes as a paper so you can write those because then the court will let you have a little bit of a break to talk. But we've got to not only ask questions, but we have to listen because that changes the way our next question's going to be. And so we're asking, listening, thinking of maybe an argument or something else to do, but then also if we have to respond spontaneously to a legal argument. So there's a lot going on that you are like, "don't forget to ask him this." It is just not a good idea. Right?
Kat George:
No, and I agree and I give a notepad as well because there might be some points that someone said that we hadn't prepared for that we didn't know. 'Cause we can't always anticipate what the other side is going to say. So they might bring a point and write it down on a notepad. I think that's okay. But constantly writing every single point, I can't be alert to what your husband is saying, how he's responding and how I then want to go back and question him thereafter. So a note that's to something pertinent, yes, but to every single thing with regard to what's going on, that might not be as important, but might just be frustrating to you. "I can't believe he's saying that." That's not something we want to divert our attention from because we want to be alert to be able to respond if there's anything that's objectionable or that we want to follow up and question on.
Heather Quick:
Right, and again, that just goes to preparation. So for our clients, we've rehearse, we understand, we've done this hundreds of times. It can be very stressful to you as that person, and that's why it's so important to have such a good relationship with your attorney and trust them and know we've got this and "hey, I'm going to take a ask for a moment where you can share that with me and if you'll just be patient on that," because we know what we need to get in front of the court. And we also of course how much time we've left. And then most importantly, you know when to stop because when you're ahead and you're like, good.
Kat George:
Exactly. I agree.
Heather Quick:
You've got to know went to stop talking.
Kat George:
I had one hearing, my client started of talking and I had to cut a nudge and I was like, "ma'am, we're winning. We don't need to interject. Let the court admonish him. We don't need to say anything else."
Heather Quick:
And yeah, sometimes that's the most important time when you're done.
Kat George:
Right.
Heather Quick:
When you know you need to stop. Because the courts made their decision. They know they've heard enough and that's where it's like, "let your attorney be your representative."
Kat George:
Right.
Heather Quick:
Because we understand this world that you don't, because we're lawyers and we also know how to get the best outcome for you.
Kat George:
But letting us be your representative, like you don't need to interrupt, you don't need to interrupt your spouse. Definitely don't ever interrupt the judge. Sometimes you want to interrupt opposing counsel 9 times out of 10, I'm going to interrupt opposing counsel, but I'm not. I'll let them get their point across because no matter what, the court is going to give us an opportunity to respond.
Heather Quick:
And they are. And I have been, believe it or not, admonished for interrupting and you know, you get carried away. So it is, it's hard. It's hard to go into court and be like, "oh man, it's like back in school."
Kat George:
My gosh.
Heather Quick:
Tell you when to stop talking and it's tough for me for sure. So we understand, but that's why you got to let us get do it. But lastly, Kat, because this is so fun and we could keep talking for hours, I'm certain, but before you go, could you please let our listeners know what have you learned about divorce and representing women throughout your career that you'd like to share?
Kat George:
I've said this before, and I'll say this again. Divorce is a death. And you have to properly grieve and mourn a death. So even though you might be happy or sad to embark upon this, it's still a naturally emotion so that it's okay to feel sad and I'd rather you cry in front of me than not. I don't need you to be like "I am woman. Hear me roar." I just need you to be your natural self. And so with that being said, like we're grieving it and that's part of the evolution of it. And so when you come to me, it's okay to feel sad even though you're making this decision. And it's okay to be happy two days later even though you're making this decision. So it's all part of the evolution.
And with all that being said, with us growing and evolving, divorce is not you saying "I'm giving up." Divorce is you saying, "I'm standing up for myself and I'm just embarking on a new chapter in my life." And the fact that you have the opportunity to embark on a new chapter, I think it's amazing. Sometimes a woman will say to me, "well, I'm 50, I'm 60." And I say "on God's green, beautiful earth, you live for another 40, 50 years. Enjoy the 40, 50 years. Don't use that time to be sad. Enjoy it, embark upon it, go through the evolution of it. And then when you're on the other side, you won't even recognize yourself."
So I'm even going to say this, I actually stole this from Heather, but I'll share it with you. Journal, literally journal the day that you've thought about getting a divorce journal. The day that you meet with your attorney for the consultation. Journal the day that you've actually retained. And once you journal and you chronologize those feelings, then you'll come back and you're able to actually even look back on and say, "wow, look how much I've changed with regard to that." So that's actually Heather's idea, but that's one of the things I've learned about practicing, so I thought I'd share it.
Heather Quick:
Well, Kat, thank you so much. And I will say if you're looking for a guided divorce journal, let us know. We have them in the office.
Kat George:
Absolutely.
Heather Quick:
Mail them to you or you can come pick one up. Kat, it has been a pleasure. I thank you so much for sharing your experience and wisdom with our listeners today.
Kat George:
Thank you for having me. I'm excited.
Heather Quick:
Thank you.
Thank you for joining me for this episode of Women Winning Divorce. If you or someone you know is looking for answers regarding divorce, reach out to us at Floridawomenslawgroup.com and also join the conversation on social at Women Winning Divorce. Women Winning Divorce is the place for an elevated conversation on how women can thrive during times of adversity in order to live their best life.