Women Winning Divorce with Heather B. Quick, Esq.

#53-Preparing for Divorce with Sara Khaki

Episode Summary

“They want to figure a lot of financial things out before they talk to an attorney… a good attorney will help you figure those things out. That is like cleaning the house before the maid comes over.” – Sara Khaki, Esq. In this episode, Sara Khaki, Esq., joins Heather Quick, Owner & Attorney of Florida Women's Law Group, to discuss preparing for divorce. They cover the personal and financial steps for preparing for divorce, and the importance of client participation.

Episode Notes

About Our Guest

Sara Khaki is an attorney and founding partner at Atlanta Divorce Law Group, and Co-Host of the “Happily Ever After Divorce” podcast. Sara has been distinguished by Atlanta Magazine and Super Lawyers as a Rising Star; she was featured in the “Atlanta Woman” spread in Vanity Fair magazine in February 2022. Atlanta Divorce Law Group won Best Family Law Firm in Atlanta for 2022 in BestSelf Magazine. 

 

 

Sara’s Social Media Links:

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/atlantadivorcelawgroup/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/atldivorcegroup

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sara-khaki-87040947?trk=hp-identity-name

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/atldivorcelawgroup/?hl=en

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeX7_X5A6qZM7zbe3vBBtIQ

Official website: https://atlantadivorcelawgroup.com/

Meetup Site: https://www.meetup.com/atlanta-divorce-law-group-meetup/events/

Podcast Site – “Happily Ever After Divorce” - https://atlantadivorcelawgroup.com/podcast/

 

 

 

"Women Winning Divorce" is a radio show and podcast hosted by Heather Quick, CEO and Owner of Florida Women's Law Group. Each week we focus on different aspects of family law to help guide women through the difficult and emotional legal challenges they are facing. Heather brings over 20 years of law experience that advocates and empowers women to achieve happier and healthier lives. Join Heather each week as she discusses family law issues including divorce, custody, alimony, paternity, narcissism, mediation and more. This program was created to provide tips and insight to women with family law issues. It is not intended to be legal advice because every situation is different. Visit us at https://www.womenwinningdivorce.com/ for more resources. Text us at 904-944-6800 for a copy of Heather's Top 5 Divorce Tips. If you have questions or a topic you would like Heather to cover, email us at marketing@4womenlaw.com

 

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Women Winning Divorce podcast series https://www.womenwinningdivorce.com/

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Florida Women’s Law Group https://www.floridawomenslawgroup.com/

 

This program was created to provide tips and insight to women with family law issues. It is not intended to be legal advice because every situation is different.  

 

Episode Transcription

Heather Quick:

Welcome to Women Winning Divorce. I am your host, Heather Quick. I'm an attorney, entrepreneur, author, and founder of Florida Women's Law Group, the only divorce firm for women by women. I love thinking big, thinking outside the box, creating creative solutions for women and empowering women to win in all aspects of their life. In each episode of this show, I will discuss how to navigate the divorce process, come out stronger and empowered on the other side.

Welcome to Women Winning Divorce. Each week we focus on issues involving women in divorce, like custody, alimony, maternity, narcissism, and other family law issues, provide insight on the journey, Women Winning Divorce. I'm Heather, Quick, owner and attorney of Florida Women's Law Group and today I am honored to have as my guest Ms. Sara Khaki attorney and founding partner at the Atlanta Divorce Law Group and she also has her own podcast called Happily Ever Divorce. Welcome to the show Sara.

Sara Khaki:

Thanks Heather. Thanks for having me.

Heather Quick:

Absolutely. Now I always ask our guests, really what brought you to family law and what keeps you there as far as having to practice focused on that?

Sara Khaki:

Most legal practitioners, we fall into family law for some reason or another and then your question is very poignant of what keeps you there. What brought me there was a job opportunity when I was in college and wanted decide if I want to go to law school or not. And my mentor at the time, Bob Tharp, who actually owns also a firm here in Atlanta called Meriwether & Tharp, I was his summer associate for many summers through college and law school. And I was exposed to the world of family law. I knew I liked it and I knew I was interested in it, but my path after law school took me a different way and it wasn't until I started my own firm, my first firm social security firm that then later on I decided that I wanted to get back into family law.

And I think the reason for that is I love family. I've come from a big Persian family. I think family is everything. I love the loyalty, I love the feeling of the identification that you have with being a member of a family. But all that also comes with a lot of personal baggage, a lot of mindset, a lot of personal development and possibly what I found through my time of doing family law through college and law school and then later on getting back into it and also through some personal stories, specifically my brother when he went through his divorce is I realized that this is probably one of the biggest identity crisis people have is when they're going through divorce. Now Heather, you know this, we're good friends. I am a child. I've immigrated twice. I've left my homeland of Iran when I was only three and I was a refugee in Sweden, then left Sweden when I was a teenager.

And I can tell you that that was less of an identity attack than what I have witnessed in my own family members who've gone through divorce. There is something very deep and personal and psychologically internal that people face through this process and it fascinates me because I find family to be one of the most strongest tools in our society for a source of love, for a source of growth and nourishment. But at the same time, family can be one of the most painful things we go through when it falls apart. And I found that through my law degree that might be one of the biggest ways I can make an impact.

Heather Quick:

That's fascinating. And I find that when we have these personal experiences and then that really influences our practice of law and really the way we address things and the way the employees that we hire, the attorneys, the strategies, it just makes it so much more fulfilling. And as you know, the show is called Women Winning Divorce and that there is hope at the end of the day and there can be a positive outcome and there is a way to go through this process and not end up totally destroyed emotionally, mentally and spiritually, financially. I mean you don't have to be that way. And I think when you have a positive reasoning in your own experience and bringing it to the firm, the firm can offer more of that I think to our clients.

Sara Khaki:

Oh, absolutely. I think that what you do that is so unique and I've learned a lot by watching you as well. I mean when I wanted to start my family law firm, you were one of the big people I went to that and you were a huge mentor in that journey for me. And one of the things I learned from you is you really understood that our job is not to prepare divorce papers and hand them off at the courthouse steps. Our job, it goes so much further than that and the client did not hire us just for that. They really are hiring us for that source of hope, that source of finding their power within. And those of us who are actually able to make an impact are able to tie that to our personal story and then give that away to the client. And you really do a beautiful job of that. And I've learned so much just by having you as a friend and mentor in that journey.

Heather Quick:

You so sweet Sara. Flattery will get you everywhere.

Sara Khaki:

I know it really does.

Heather Quick:

Well this week, this is a great topic because I mean we can really dive into it and I think our listeners really enjoy it, but it's talking about how to prepare for divorce and obviously the show we focus on women here because my law firm, we represent women only. Your firm represents men and women. Whether divorce is something you're contemplating or your husband told you he wants, everything about it is extremely emotional and I think that one of the biggest challenges women have is they just don't know where even begin, right? Or they feel overwhelmed and it's like what do I do first? And you and I both have a large network of friends, family and all that. And often I know I do and I'm sure you do, I get that somebody reaches out to me like, Heather, what do I do? I think this is where this is going.

And they just don't know. And so that's what I really want to talk about today and steps that can help women begin to get in control and begin to maybe have a plan. Because I believe that when you have a plan it eases a lot of the anxiety and then which direction you're going in. And that again is also the only way to get where you want to go, right?

Sara Khaki:

Yes.

Heather Quick:

So let's talk about first, you get that, somebody emails you, reaches out, they say, "Sara, what do I do?" What's your advice? What do you tell them?

Sara Khaki:

So the first place I start, Heather, is trying to first understand why are we having this conversation? Why are we here and why are we having this conversation now? So I mean, I am not divorce only for women like you are, but 65% of our clientele are professional women. And a lot of times I find that they've been contemplating divorce for a long time before they're coming to us. And so the question of why now? I find this very poignant and why are we here? Is also very important because I think part of the reason for the overwhelm is they're still in pain over why am I here and why is this happening? And then all the other conversations about financials about do I get the house? Does he get the house? Should I stay in the same neighborhood? What do I do about the kids' school?

All these things become just so much noise and overwhelmed when they haven't yet settled that first internal feeling of how am I here and why is this happening? We're not therapists so hopefully they already are getting therapy and they've sought us once they have kind of found some sort of a restoration within. But I do find that part of our job is to make sure we're clear and they're clear on why is this happening and why is this happening now? Because if I'm speaking to somebody who's been married for 10 years, unhappily married for 10 years and they are coming to me now, my first question is why are you doing this now? And that question may be, well now the kids are old enough that it feels like it's a better time or I have established myself with a good job or I've got this opportunity that I can go to another state.

These are all important things to know. But I find as advisors and advocates, it's our job that we keep bringing them back to that why. Because once we figure out the why and we stay clear on that and it's not wavering, then we're not. We can go to the how and how is a lot of the advice of okay, what do we know about your day-to-day budget? What do we know about your monthly budget? What do you need to be on your own? And if you don't know the answers to that, that's okay. Biggest lesson that I think most women out there need to know, and I'm sure you're going to jump all over this as well, is they want to figure a lot of these financial things out before they talk to an attorney. And a good attorney will actually help them in that journey of figuring these things out.

It's almost like when you clean up the house before the maid comes over, you don't need to do that. We can actually ask some very good questions. A good advisor, a good counselor can ask some very good questions and give you some great criteria on how to think about your finances or how to get the right answers and what questions you should be asking instead of you driving yourself crazy trying to gather all these documents or hiding in his office, trying to get the financial statements to get some sign sort of financial clarity. And it creates just more and more overwhelm, more noise. I think you can start that conversation with a good attorney earlier on and say, "Here's everything I don't know. And part of what I'm hiring you for is helping me figure, educate myself on this process." And I know that that's a big part of the journey you take your female clients through.

Heather Quick:

And I agree with you on the "Why now?" Because what I find in my experience is something has happened. I mean something's happened that I'm done. That's the last family I'm spending with his family. The last Christmas, the last this because the pain now is worse than the status quo and just making it through. And sometimes it's the kids and they recognize this is getting worse and I'm not going to stay here. It could be a mistrust, but it's also, they've been thinking about it for so long and I think it's an important why today? Because I know you thought about it for a long time. It takes a lot of courage for a woman to call the attorney's office and book the appointment and show up. That's very uncomfortable and I recognize that. But that something is going on that is bad enough that it's worth for them to be uncomfortable.

And usually my response to anybody who says this is, you need to talk to an attorney because you don't know what you don't know. And it may be that I have had more than one conversation, several with women and they're like, well, but I really want to try counseling. Of course I'm not going to stop anyone from that. I'm going to encourage it and give them good referrals. But even going into counseling when they have a general sense of maybe what's to come, I think that then they can either decide and then if counseling works or doesn't, at least they're beginning that process to educate themselves on what is this going to look like for me? And it can be whether they're just so unhappy, are they that unhappy that they want to do this or not? Or has their husband told them and so now they're really not involved in that. This happens.

So you got to get on board because the train is coming and that that's even a harder conversation many times because emotionally they're not quite there yet and that makes it much harder for them to take action. I see too many women wait until right before the deadline and they did get served, but they just aren't ready to face it and they at least finally get to an attorney's office because they're at risk for many rights and it's going to affect them financially. And of course their children, their family and they need to talk with a divorce attorney. And even though we're not licensed therapists or counselors, a lot of what we talk about sometimes is similar. Our just advice is legally related and not therapeutic. Although it's probably therapeutics, but not in that sense. And I think that the clarity on why they're doing this, as you pointed out, is a great first step that might have to come in that initial conversation with an attorney, not all attorneys care as much about that.

But I think it is important like you said, because it could be, I mean we can have all kind of scenarios. There could be a dangerous situation, then that changes the advice and maybe the direction we're going to go in because hey, this is a little bit more dangerous. We need to talk about safety measures as well. There could be, well an affair, there could be another relationship on either side that puts time constraints or deadlines. They're like, I need this for whatever reason. And sometimes it's their own family that are intervening and really pushing points.

Sara Khaki:

Well to your point about you need to see the attorney earlier, sooner than later. I see this in our female clients all the time, so it's probably even more for you. So women, I think we're fixers and we are incredibly adaptable and such a strong instinct to please. So we will try to fix a bad situation way longer than we probably should. And what I've seen multiple times this happen where you have the husband completely checked out or he's having an affair or he is doing drugs or substance abuse of some form and there's young children involved. And in any of those scenarios it's very common that I see the female, the wife trying so hard to fix this marriage and solve it all on their own. And what happens is they come to us and if it's in the drug or abusive situation, we have to tell them, you're letting these small children be around this and it's been going on for quite some time now.

Is he doing his part and finding a way out of this? Or he's the one that had the affair, yet you are doing all the therapy work. Where's the partnership in that? And there is also, I mean Florida's different than Georgia, but in Georgia there are very different legal ramifications on alimony and spousal support if when you're seeking spousal support and somebody has been unfaithful, it can change it. There are few things in that fact pattern can change what you can ask for if you can even ask for it at all. So there's certain things that you might-

Heather Quick:

We're going to have to touch on that. That sounds very interesting.

Sara Khaki:

So in Georgia, if the cause of the divorce is due to infidelity and the party who is seeking the spousal support is the one who was unfaithful, they can be blocked from receiving, asking for alimony. Now you do have to show that after your spouse found out that you were having an affair that you didn't reconcile. Because the date separation in Georgia goes from the date of intimacy. So for whatever reason, if you had an affair and then your spouse finds out about it and afterwards they forgive you, you guys try to reconcile the date that this argument doesn't work. But if you don't reconcile and they file for divorce, they can actually bar you from seeking alimony. It goes the other way around if the husband's asking for alimony from the wife. So these are just time sensitive things and issue sensitive ramifications to your divorce case. Same goes if there's substance abuse around children. And even if though you're not involved in that, you're letting your children ride around with a man who is high. That could happen. That could reflect on your parenting as well.

Heather Quick:

Right. These are some points I want to explore a little bit more after the break because one, there are the differences in the state, but I think that it'll be some good discussion particularly for those thinking about divorce in either states. So we will be right back, Sara.

All right. Thank you for rejoining us and we really started talking about some interesting topics, particularly as it relates to divorce in Georgia with Sara prior to the break that I absolutely want to follow up on. Now I think this is important to know if you're preparing for divorce, this is why you've got to tell your attorney if there was infidelity or an affair because it matters. And this is crazy, Sara, I got to tell you, I thought North Carolina was the most backwards. I am thinking that Georgia is right up there.

Sara Khaki:

We have some interesting stuff going on here. Yes.

Heather Quick:

I mean, yeah, that's like basically creating an at fault divorce that you could have been married a long time and he's been supporting husband and you may not receive alimony because you had affair. So ladies, that is fascinating. Now it doesn't work that way in Florida at all. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter bit. And I can tell you this very, very angry alimony payers, men who are paying alimony after their wife had an affair, but that's neither here nor there.

Sara Khaki:

Yeah, keep them in Florida.

Heather Quick:

I would of course support that in the reverse. I'm always very clear like, hey, if he had an affair and he wants alimony absolutely [inaudible 00:18:31].

Sara Khaki:

Yeah, you're not asking for fair, you're just asking for your ladies to get the better shake here.

Heather Quick:

Absolutely. We want them to get the best deal possible and however we can interpret the law in that way. But that's really a good thing to know and a good reason to go get some advice and keep that on the down low. Don't share everything with your husband. And that would also be something that I think I would like our listeners to know. You're thinking about it, whether or not there's been a conversation or not, I don't know that you need to advertise that you're going to see, I just don't think, don't anything good that comes out of that. I tell our women all the time, why, what are you expecting to hear in return from that? And why are you giving him the upper hand so that maybe he can move faster or go file before you? I just don't see any positives.

Sara Khaki:

We definitely don't want to limit our options with strategizing for the client. We may have a full strategy session and out of that strategy session, based on where the client wants to end up and what they want to accomplish, we come up with a strategy of, okay, go have that midnight kitchen table conversation with him. But let's not limit the strategy options that we have with you because we didn't get a chance to hear all the details and advise you before you went and did that. So to your point, everything from telling him that you want a divorce, you hired the divorce attorney telling him the terms you want, revealing to him that you are filing first or offering a settlement offer, please let your attorney have an opportunity to speak to you and strategize with you. Because once the cat's out of the bag on some of these things, it limits our strategy options. So to Heather's point, this is all the reasons, even if you're thinking about it, you should speak to an attorney first.

Heather Quick:

Because you may be wondering like, okay, because I'm going to play on this. So no spousal support or limited if there's an affair, that might be a really good reason to try to reconcile. And I'm just saying that it would be and that would be important. At least they know that, right? Because they don't know what they don't know and hey, it's like it might be worth it. We would never advise that nor would you if there was any kind of dangerous situation. But if you're trying to establish and evaluate what are your options and what are the potential consequences of those actions, whether good or bad, you need to know. And I think that it would be a huge piece of information to find out when you're trying to figure out if you're going to get a divorce and trying to plan for it.

Sara Khaki:

Sure. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that a lot of women need to also understand that sometimes just because he is hanging around doesn't mean that he doesn't want the divorce. I see this all the time that we have husbands that just dig their head in the sand and the woman comes to us and still thinks there's something there. And after they give us all this information, they tell us that they've spoken to the therapist. And the therapist has also validated that hey, he doesn't want to work on this. He's done, he's checked out the men from this is stereotyping, but it's just looking at what I've seen tend to be able to stay in a miserable situation a lot longer and hold on and drag the family through that for years than a woman. When a woman is done, a woman is done.

And sometimes they almost have to be the hero and say, "You know what? It took two of us to break this marriage apart, but I'm going to have to be the one that does the cleanup work and goes to the divorce attorney." And that's heartbreaking for women and myself as a married woman who's gone through a lot in my own marriage. That's a lot. And I hate that from women. But it is part of something we just need to be aware of in these conversations that just because he is hanging in here and he hasn't filed first doesn't mean he's here.

Heather Quick:

Exactly. Exactly. And sometimes because they can compartmentalize it. So they can be like, all right, I mean we both talk to women with these situations. He's willing to do whatever he wants. You're doing all the work at home. He goes to work, he goes out with his friends and he really doesn't have to put in that emotional work at home or a lot of that. And when they tell me, I'm like, well why would he? It's so easy for him right now. There's no reason for him to push this, divide the money, have the conflict when he might be, I mean, great, not in a fulfilled relationship, but in a lot of ways it's working for that part of the marriage and there's no reason. And I do think many times they are like, you're going to have to do it for whatever it is.

It's just the complacency and they're maybe being stoic like, well I can get through this and I can find other interests where it's too hard for women to be like, no, we have a family, we have kids, we have a house. It's harder, I think is so relational that you're like, no, I can't live like this without that relationship. But they can to more extent or they found one elsewhere. Yeah, probably.

But now let's talk a little bit about financial because I know many times women will call our office, call your office and what do I need to bring? Should I bring all the tax returns? Should I bring all of these things at that very initial meeting? And if they're all gung ho, I tell them, that's fine. However, we will get there in the next step because we got it. We need to really figure out first we're going to work together, why you're getting divorced and do we want divorce and really dig into the financials. But I think it's wise for women to begin collecting documents. I love the scanning options on your phone, taking pictures. Because in the electronic world we all live in, you have limited access. We just don't get so much mail anymore. So it's not like you can see all the statements that come in the mail could all be locked down on his computer. So to the extent you can do some sleuthing, you might not understand it and you might not know everything. But I think that's important. I don't ever really discourage anybody [inaudible 00:25:07].

Sara Khaki:

Yeah, I definitely think that anytime you're going through a very painful time in your life, you can turn into a very powerful moment in your life. I can look back to some of the most painful moments in my life and the knowledge I had to gather, the awareness I had to bring, or even just the technical information I had to learn to get through that painful moment turned into a source of power. And learning how to create a personal budget could not be a bigger achievement, a personal achievement a woman could have out of this. So I agree with you. I think the first consultation that brings unnecessary noise to the conversation, I think that first consultation needs to be exactly what we're talking about. Is this the right team for me and is this the right time and right decision for me right now? And what are some just general things I need to consider before I make a move on my own without knowing the consequences of it.

The next step in our office is the strategy session. Once we were past all this, then we go into the strategy session and that's when I think you should bring all these things and to your point, gather any documents you can get your hand on. One of the most powerful documents that you can start with is just running a credit report. Women will be shocked to see how many things their name is on that the husband is using their credit score for because they might have maxed out their credit score, so I think that's a very valuable thing that we can just start with of knowing what's on there. And a lot of times you can have access to his as well. And I know you advised this, get your own credit card in your own name because when time comes and you want to hire an attorney and we want to keep that fact that you've hired an attorney a secret until we're ready to reveal it for strategic reasons, you want to be able to run that on a whole different credit card.

Heather Quick:

Absolutely. And just again, as part of building your independence and your ability to strategize and I mean that's the way it's going. You are going to have independence from this person, this relationship. So to start taking those steps and a lot of things when if women are listening to this and thinking, well what kind of things do I do? We advise it's time to get a new email address. I don't know if there's the family computer, but if people in the household share a computer, it's pretty easy to get on their Gmail account because all the passwords are saved, which is very convenient tool unless you are trying to have things private. And so I would suggest, you get a new email address, maybe a post office box. And that just depends. I think, you talk to your attorney on that. But shut down on the social media, I this is not the time and clean it up. If we haven't filed yet. And you're wondering, well I would say if you don't want to show it to your attorney or your mom, it's probably best to delete that.

Sara Khaki:

Text messages, social media, these are all admissible pieces of evidence that can be used. So yes, be careful with all of that.

Heather Quick:

Absolutely. And you know, can within control at least limit that before he knows because everybody takes screenshots and things like that. And then we touched on at the beginning of this segment, the infidelity and that as far as the implications on alimony, which is, it's just shocking in our hands. We both know know how sexist that is because that is what it comes from, because men didn't used to ask for alimony 50 years ago, 100 years ago. So that's unbelievable Sara. I was fired up [inaudible 00:28:47].

Sara Khaki:

Well we need you to come to Georgia.

Heather Quick:

Nice try. I know, I know. But regardless, okay, so then what if, okay, we're going through the divorce. There is the topic of, well I just met the nicest guy, of course and they think he'll never stick around or he won't last. So I better start dating. I don't think, so many reasons that's a good idea. I think it's a terrible idea. How does it affect the case in Georgia if okay, you filed and you're like, no, there's no infidelity, no proof of that. But now I just started dating this guy. How does it affect the divorce?

Sara Khaki:

So it not, it doesn't legally have an actual black or white, any kind of effect on it other than the fact that typically the stereotypical cases then dad is going to start finding all sorts of dirt on the new boyfriend and finding reasons for why mom's child custody arrangement should be cut in some way because now the children are being exposed to a non-relative adult. So that's something that we definitely need to consider. But I'm sure Florida's no different than Georgia in this way. That family law is a bit of anything can go right before we get to court and before we get a judge, it's sort of like zoo, anything can go. They're asking for discovery of production of documents or they're asking you a series of questions that by court order we have to respond to. And sometimes if there is anger, resentment or they found out about the boyfriend and there's jealousy, they will try to embarrass you through what they're asking you in discovery.

They'll try to rack up your attorney's fees through what they're trying to ask you in the discovery process. So what it creates is it can create resentment and jealousy in a divorce that could be the simplest divorce. Let's say there's not even any minor children involved. Let's say that all financials, nothing should be that complicated. And we see this all the time. All of a sudden a divorce that should have been simple uncontested is taking nine months to 12 months. And it's like why? Well, they are using the court system for retribution. And unfortunately, or fortunately, the court system will never say you were a bad girl and you are a great husband or you are a terrible husband and you are a wonderful wife to him. You will never get that. And there's attorneys out there that will make all sorts of money because they make you feel that they're going to get that to you and they will never get that to you.

That's why the conversation that Heather is talking about, I'm speaking directly to your clients at this point, that's why the conversations that you're saying that you're having with the prospect or with your potential client at the onset is so critical because unless we're clear about some of these things and we're on the same page about what you want, this could turn into an endless battle for something you'll never get and we have to be careful that we're not flying flags like red flags that's going to make the other side go look for that.

So if you are dating somebody and you don't know that he's fully moved on, you may be poking the bear to want to come after some sort of a retribution he's never going to get, but he's just going to embarrass you and in a very unfair way. And yes, a lot of these things are irrelevant and they're not even relevant to the case. And your attorney can argue that. But that doesn't take it away from the fact that now you have spent money on your attorney to argue points that are just not even relevant to you, the outcome that you want.

Heather Quick:

Well, and it's importantly, it maybe could have been avoided. It's just sometimes you got to take the high road. This will be a snapshot, this process in your life if we can focus on what we need to focus on and get through it, which is a great segue way when we get back after this next break about client participation and really how we interact with you as your attorneys and how you interact with the law firm. All right, so you will be right back.

We are back for the last segment of Women Winning Divorce and really talking to women about how they prepare for divorce and what should they expect as they are getting ready to go in this process. And Sara and I talked about the importance of the initial consult and why you need to talk to an attorney before you talk to your spouse. And we talked about the finances, romantic relationships, all that. And really as we get to this part, this is the most important because it's the importance of client, participation, right Sara? I mean, you can't just hire us and then go put your head in the sand and let us do everything right?

Sara Khaki:

No.

Heather Quick:

Because-

Sara Khaki:

No, I think that the biggest part of this is nobody knows the psychology and the needs of your family like you do. So we need you to help us say, if I zig, he's going to zag because we can come up with the most brilliant plan and the best argument that any divorce attorney's ever come up with. But until we know how is that going to undo the domino effect, 10 steps down the road, it might be completely useless to your case. There's a lot of times when we're preparing a settlement offer, there is specific language we can put in a cover letter to that settlement offer that makes that settlement offer speak directly to the opposing party that we wouldn't know. Only you could tell us that what biggest thing he cares about is for this to be hush-hush, and for his reputation to not get damaged through this divorce process.

The biggest thing he cares about is to not be seen as a bad dad. The biggest thing he cares about is for his family to feel like him and I fought hard for this marriage and we didn't just give up. There's so many different personality traits and identities and things that we're not going to know about your spouse and we never will get the chance to if you don't help us with that strategy building. So yes, you need to be an active participant in this and it's the same thing in anything you do in life, you have to be an active participant for decisions that are made around your future.

Heather Quick:

And I know for some women listening that might seem very daunting. And what do you mean? Well, we're going to tell you, we're going to ask questions, we're going to educate you. Some clients are like, "Well, I guess I should have educated myself better on this." Like what, through Google? No, that's the job of your attorney. We're going to tell you what you need to know and things that you didn't even think about because that's our job. And at the end of the day, we need your participation because you need to think about and we're going to help you. But where are you going to be? Where do you want to be three years from now? Because getting out of this divorce, that's one thing, but there's so much we can do to set you up for your future. But we have to have those conversations and we want to know one of the big things.

And our world is so global now. People move all over the place compared to probably years ago when their family, extended family, everybody really just remained. Now where we are in northeast Florida and Jacksonville, we have two large naval bases. We've always had people coming specifically around this area that aren't from here. And I always want to know how long have you been here and where's your family? Especially with small children because they may really want to get back to wherever their family is. And that's not easy. And that's not just something that just happens when you share children with somebody, you've got to get court permission or consent. And I think that's a good example of a goal someone may have, but if we don't ask the question or they don't share really where they want to be, we may miss an opportunity to strategize and put them in a better position with their divorce maybe to set that up in the future.

Sara Khaki:

Yes. And I think to your point, again, this is not a cleaning up house before you bring the housekeeping crew in, this is conversations that a strong legal team will lead you through, through proper questioning. You do not need to come to us and have all these answers. You do not need to come to us and know the full psychology of your spouse while we're putting together a settlement offer. A good legal team will ask the questions that will get this out of you. And all of a sudden you'll notice and start seeing, bringing more awareness to yourself and your family just from those series of questions. And I think that's one of the biggest things people need to be looking for is the quality, the questions that are asked of you about your future and the question of where's your family? Where's your support system? Where's your inner circle? Where are they at? That's a great question that I think that goes way beyond well, we got you divorce papers, and we avoided taking you to court. Wonderful. Great. What's next?

Heather Quick:

Yeah, and I think that only comes from client participation in the strategy meetings, but also just like you said, for the women listening, you got to pick the right attorney. You have to go to the right firm. And this is a big process and you want somebody who is going to ask you a lot of questions and who is more concerned about your future than just getting through the process. The overall logistics of most divorces, all divorces, they all have the same part. Some have more issues than others and there's a formula, but it's the people and their relationships, their children, their children are going to be different. They're going to have concerns about their children that we won't know unless they share.

And to me, sometimes those are some of the most important questions because again, just like you said, with trying to settle a case and we have mediation, that's mandatory, but we need to know what it is your main goal in trying to reach settlement because there may be an opportunity to create a settlement agreement for you and get you things that you won't get in front of a judge.

But we don't know that that's important. We don't know your family traditions that that's always examples that we will use if people have lots of traditions and around holidays and sometimes it's not all Christmas and Thanksgiving, there can be maybe really special holidays that are important and you want to make sure that's included. Because in Florida, they look at the basic school schedule and that's how they determine what the holidays are. And I got to tell, it's not surprising to you it's pretty basic Christian holidays. There's no shocker here that there's nothing else.

Sara Khaki:

No Persian New Year in there?

Heather Quick:

There isn't But I mean, I put that in all my stuff.

Sara Khaki:

I know you would.

Heather Quick:

You know that's important to me only if I get really good Persian food. And those things we won't know. We might inquire depending on the level of conversation, but I think that's really, really important for clients to know that, hey, if there's something really important for you and your kids and your tradition, we have an opportunity to include that in a settlement and maybe even in front of the court because these are important things you can ask for. But if you don't tell us, and likewise, if your attorney doesn't really ask you questions about that, we're not going to know and we're going to miss a great opportunity to give you really even more valuable settlement agreement. Because things that are really important to you that may not be important now.

Sara Khaki:

And see, Heather, this is exactly why I'm wary of the divorce attorney that on that first consult goes straight into, okay, so let's map out what you want for parenting plan. Let's map out what you want for alimony. What 50 other cases have you used as cookie cutter formula that you're now imposing on this person who you've met for the first time and can't truly know all these family traditions, all the goals, the dreams, the hopes for the future in this 60 minute time period? That really should first be spent on the initial questions we propose, which is why now? Why is this happening and where do you want to be versus, okay, let me get my yellow legal pad out and click my pen and start creating you a child custody plan within the first 15 minutes that I've met you.

Heather Quick:

Well, and it's just like, and I can go on and on about that whole paternalistic approach in the you should have the house and you should do this and this and this. It's like, well, nobody should tell you what should be done. They need to be asking, and then maybe questioning you a little bit continually, is this really what you want? Is this going to get you to your end goal? Because like you said, if we don't plan for the outcomes, we're not going to take the right path. And it may sound good at first, but I find it evolves. Again, just like you said, we're not mapping everything out the very first time we meet you because hopefully you're going to evolve as this process goes on, you're going to learn more, you're going to grow more, you're going to begin to have more peace hopefully in your life. And start to understand there's independence, particularly for women and even for men, they learn how, Hey, this is how you take care of three kids when your wife's not home, that's how you make lunches and whatever.

Which I say that, and we've talked on the show, I don't make lunches. They don't like the lunches I make.

Sara Khaki:

No, and your husband is a great cook, by the way. But yes.

Heather Quick:

So I retired from that position years ago, so we all know our strengths. However, that was a really valuable thing. And then I learned, now he is showing me up. I can never make lunches. I'm throwing in peanut butter and jelly and chips and they're going to go all gourmet. But regardless, that's what happens through the process in the best case scenario where you're evolving and learning more about yourself and more about maybe what you do want in the future. And so the process here in Florida, most divorces are going to take money, give or take a little bit, some way more. Not much shorter than that, but there is a lot of positive to that period of time because if your legal team is communicating with you and you're communicating with them and then you're beginning to move forward, you're going to learn a lot about yourself and really see your future a bit differently than that very first day.

Sara Khaki:

Absolutely. I think up until you go through this process, you've seen yourself as a half or a part to something versus this process. If done, hopefully we'll start restoring you as a whole, and that could look completely different. I'll lead with this one example I have very often, I think women, I can relate to this as a mother, if somebody asks me, what would you want in a divorce? If I answered that quickly and I just said, "I would want full custody over my children", it would just be my gut instinct that would say it right away. And a lot of women will say that because there's a social pressure that you should take on your children. You're the mother, they should be with you. I see very often that they come to us and they say that, but then when we go into what are some future goals?

Well, I want to reeducate myself or I want to get back in the workforce, I want to start this business with my best friend. And then when we take away the layers of the onion, we realized, well, is he a bad dad? How would you describe him as a father? Oh, he's not actually, the kids love him. He's a great dad. Maybe he makes gourmet dinners, something like that. It's like, well, why shouldn't he have more time with the kids? And throughout the process, some point they made discover about themselves that, wow, maybe splitting visitation in this way or that way is something that initially was painful and hurtful, but man, I'm going to actually need that. I'm going to need that time to myself. I'm going to need to take that girl's trip. I'm going to need to get back to school.

And if he's a good dad, what better hands for him to be on? I think that takes a lot of personal development and awareness to get to that point initially, because initially you're in so much pain and those children feel a part of you and you're like, "Get away from my children. This is mine, mine, mine." And I completely relate to that, but I have seen a lot of our clients make that evolution you're talking about somewhere along the line where they're like, okay, I actually may need more time to myself than I think, than I want to admit.

Heather Quick:

Yes, I think you're absolutely right, and they begin to appreciate to have a little time and then resent it if it's a situation where your husband, ex-husband doesn't take the kids that That's a whole nother show. That's a whole nother show. But lastly, Sara, before we go, I would love for our listeners to hear from you what you've learned about divorce and representing women throughout your career and family.

Sara Khaki:

I think that women, like I mentioned earlier, of the two sexes, we are the one that's probably more adaptable and we'll probably adapt and please and adapt and please till somewhere along the line kind of lose ourselves and we lose who we are, what our own needs are. So when we're going through this process, I think it's very important for us to determine what's going to restore me when I make this decision that five years from now and the line, I can look in the mirror and say, "I did everything I could and I'm clear with my conscience." Some of us take that too far. Some of us break ourselves into pieces over that, but I think and as healthy as possible with a therapist and a series of conversations with an attorney that can ask you some good questions about what's possible, what your future could look like.

Having that internal dialogue of what do I need that if five years from now, a year from now, I can look in the mirror and say, I did everything I could. I took responsibility for my piece, and I can be restored from there. And that I think we can move on without regret. I think that's what most of us want in life. We want to be able to reach our final day or reach five years from now or one year from now and say, I did as much as I can to live without regret. I think that's one of the biggest crisis pieces that people have throughout this process, is constantly worried that they're going to make a decision that's going to lead to regret. So making sure you hire a firm that asks the good questions and doesn't just jump on top of your momentum and takes you down a path that may be hard to undo or may before it's over you're not even clear of where you were with all of it, and it's just momentum took over.

And I think that's a real concern. So having a legal team that supports you in clearing your conscience of you did everything you could, and part of that, I did everything I could is going to be who did I hire? Think, a year from now, you want to look yourself in the mirror and say, part of everything I did to make this right is that I also hired the right team. Hiring the wrong team can also lead to a year from now, two years from now, looking yourself in the mirror and having regret that it's going to be heavy to carry.

Heather Quick:

Indeed, indeed. Well, Sara, it has just been such a pleasure and honor to have you on our show today. Thank you so much for being my guest and for our listeners, you can find out more about Sara at Atlantadivorcelawgroup.com and more information about Sara and her practice to be available in the show notes. Thank you again.

Sara Khaki:

Thank you, Heather. Keep inspiring the rest of us.

Heather Quick:

Thank you for joining me for this episode of Women Winning Divorce. If you or someone you know is looking for answers regarding divorce, reach out to us at FloridaWomenslawgroup.com and also join the conversation on social at Women Winning Divorce. Women Winning Divorce is the place for an elevated conversation on how women can thrive during times of adversity in order to live their best life.