“There has to be some sort of alignment on core values – what is more important to you.” – Holly J. Moore, Esq. In this episode, Holly J. Moore, Esq., joins Heather Quick, Owner & Attorney of Florida Women's Law Group, to discuss hiring a divorce attorney. They discuss what to consider when hiring an attorney and what to expect during the consultation. “Trust is huge” – Holly J. Moore, Esq.
Have you ever wondered how to make the best choices during a divorce while navigating the complex world of family law?
In this episode of *Women Winning Divorce*, Heather Quick and guest Holly Moore delve into how choosing the right legal path can empower you through your divorce. Holly, with over 15 years in family law, shares her journey and why family law is her passion.
You’ll discover:
1. The advantages of focusing on family law and how it can be more fulfilling and effective in your case.
2. Insights into how minority-owned businesses and personal values play a role in legal decisions and advocacy.
3. Practical advice on navigating the decision-making process during divorce to ensure you’re making informed, empowering choices.
Unlock the knowledge to take control of your divorce journey and make decisions that align with your future goals.
Join us on our podcast as we navigate the complexities of marriage, divorce, separation, and all related legal and emotional aspects, including adultery, alimony, child support, spousal support, timesharing, custody battles, and the financial impact of dissolution of marriage.
Disclaimer: This podcast is for informational purposes only and is not an advertisement for legal services. The information provided on this podcast is not intended to be legal advice. You should not rely on what you hear on this podcast as legal advice. If you have a legal issue, please contact a lawyer. The views and opinions expressed by the hosts and guests are solely those of the individuals and do not represent the views or opinions of the firms or organizations with which they are affiliated or the views or opinions of this podcast’s advertisers. This podcast is available for private, non-commercial use only. Any editing, reproduction, or redistribution of this podcast for commercial use or monetary gain without the expressed, written consent of the podcast’s creator is prohibited.
Heather Quick:
Welcome to Women Winning Divorce. I am your host, Heather Quick. I'm an attorney, entrepreneur, author, and founder of Florida Women's Law Group, the only divorce firm for women by women. I love thinking big, thinking outside the box, creating creative solutions for women, and empowering women to win in all aspects of their life. In each episode of this show, I will discuss how to navigate the divorce process, come out stronger and empowered on the other side.
Welcome to Women Winning Divorce. Each week we discuss issues including divorce, custody, alimony, narcissism, mediation, and any other family law issues that seem to be appropriate for our topic, and our goal is to provide insight on the journey of women winning divorce. I'm Heather Quick, owner and attorney at Florida Women's Law Group. Today I am so excited to be joined by Holly Moore, a family law attorney and owner of the Moore Family Law Group in California. She has over 15 years of experience in family law. Welcome to the show, Holly.
Holly Moore:
Thank you, Heather. Thank you so much for having me.
Heather Quick:
Well, it is so exciting to have you. And we're just now going from coast to coast, so really brings us a lot of exposure for this show. So thank you for being here today. And why don't you start with telling us a little bit about your practice and why you chose family law?
Holly Moore:
Sure, of course. Well, I would say the phrase that you don't choose family law, family law chooses you definitely applies in my situation. Back when I was just a brand new little baby attorney, I started off doing construction defect, and what that really is super duper wealthy land developers suing super duper wealthy subcontractor companies. And as I learned very quickly, they just like to sue each other to annoy each other. And I thought, "Wow, this is a lot of work, a lot of student loans, a lot of anxiety, and it's really not helping anyone." And so I had the opportunity to try out family law under another more senior attorney, and I just loved it. It felt like I was doing something that was helping people, and it just felt good to my soul. So that was probably 15 years ago and the rest is history.
Heather Quick:
Well, I think that's great Holly, because not only did you experience and like it, but here you are 15 years later still doing it, so it obviously still is something that's important to you.
Holly Moore:
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, as you know Heather, it's not easy. It definitely comes with its own trials and difficulties, because we're dealing with people that are suffering a lot and hurting a lot and that can be really taxing to be doing that every day. But at the end of the day, it just feels good deep in my soul to be helping these people in this really hard time. So I'm still here. I'm still doing it. Not planning on going anywhere.
Heather Quick:
Well, good. I am so glad you're not. Now, as you know, of course, my law firm, Florida Women's Law Group, we represent women only, but we are usually in the minority or really in an island all on our own as far as just representing only women. Tell us a little bit about your practice.
Holly Moore:
Yeah, absolutely. So we don't have a gender preference. We do represent professionals and business owners, generally the breadwinner of the family. So statistically we actually represent a few more men than women, but we certainly love our power women that are the breadwinners of their family and own businesses and things like that.
Heather Quick:
Well, that is wonderful and it will be interesting as we talk about today's topic, which is hiring a divorce attorney and going through the consultation process. And that has so many issues and concerns for anybody about to embark on this decision, so it will be great to have this discussion with you from, of course, your perspective, your process, and things that you do to help your client go through this process. Now, one thing that I'm certain... Well, I'm not certain, but I'm pretty certain you agree with is because when we're talking to clients and the first and most important thing is to go to a lawyer that really specializes in family law and divorce, right? You don't want to go to your neighbor down the street, he's a real estate lawyer, right?
Holly Moore:
No, absolutely not. I don't hear it so much anymore, but when I was just starting out I heard attorneys say, "Family law's easy, so I'll take a family law case if it comes in the door." And what I can tell you, 15 years later and having a specialist designation and all the things, representing hundreds and thousands of family law clients, is the more I know, the more I realize I don't know. It's a really complex area of law, and I think any lawyer that tells you it's not, it's because they don't know enough about it. So absolutely having an attorney that does family law exclusively is a must. I mean, there's no way around it. We've had so many cases where the client ends up spending triple the amount of money for us to try and unravel or do things that an attorney did that they didn't know what they were doing.
And that's bad enough, but even worse I think is some bells cannot be unrung. I literally just met with a client the other day who has a full divorce judgment, and in California, when you divide property and assets and debts, it's set in stone. There's no going back on that. And so that's the real detriment is the things that cannot be undone, so absolutely you have to have an attorney that knows family law.
Heather Quick:
Yes, Holly, because I was thinking that exact same thing, and that is a similarity in Florida and California. Same thing on the assets and debt. Once that's done and divided, there's no changing that. And it is truly, I think for any lawyer, especially a lawyer who does family law and divorce, is when that client walks in our office and tells us all this stuff but then hands you a judgment and we have to say, "I can't help you. I'm so sorry you went to somebody who didn't know what they were doing or thought that this would be okay, because we can't undo this," like you said. And even if they don't get all the way to the finish line, so often I think what's happened is the clients have already lost the time with somebody who didn't really know what they were doing, and probably still a lot of expense because maybe they are fumbling around trying to learn it, and there could be serious detriment to them even before it's done that takes a while to really unravel for them.
Holly Moore:
Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And that's the thing. Even under the best circumstances, it's insanely expensive and it takes forever. So then when you add in having to try and start over or fix stuff, it compounds all the frustration and issues.
Heather Quick:
Yeah, I agree. Many years ago I started out in criminal law and then transition to family, tried to keep up with both, but those are my experience in those two areas of law the most. The law is just ever changing and evolving so rapidly that it would take all of your time just keeping up with the changes in the law in those areas, let alone representing individuals and helping them move forward. And now Florida, we have what we call equitable distribution for the assets and liability. How do you call it in California? What method by which do you divide the assets and liability?
Holly Moore:
California is a community property state, so it's like 50/50. I mean, I was going to say it has to be exact 50/50, which I think that's where it deviates a little bit from you guys where it's just, "Yeah, whatever's fair, maybe," even though it may not be equal. Community property is it has to be equal.
Heather Quick:
And we are a separate property state. I do not begin to understand community property, but at the end of the day our equitable distribution is 50/50 on what's marital, so that's probably where we could really go into-
Holly Moore:
Hey, so what does that mean, separate property state?
Heather Quick:
Well, it just means that just because you're married not everything is marital, and you can have separate non-marital assets that don't turn into marital asset just because you are married. I mean, you have to keep things separate. You have to keep those investments separate and not add to them if you truly want things designated as separate property. But on a long term term marriage, it's usually all marital anyway. However, people are living a long time, so you could be married 20 years in your seventies and have had a couple marriages and have truly accumulated separate property, and you could buy a house, put it just in your name, then get married and it's not a marital home. There's going to be some intricacies there, to the extent that makes sense.
Holly Moore:
Yes. It's very nuanced, I'm sure, in all the states. But that's interesting. I actually thought Florida was an equitable distribution state. I didn't know it was considered a separate property state.
Heather Quick:
Well, we are, but I think it depends. We do equitable distribution, however, there's that second layer that maybe it only matters in the bar exam separate property versus community property. I don't know. But I know that is a difference in California. Again, why you have to talk to an attorney who specifically understands, because things could be getting treated differently in California versus Florida, for sure. Now, Holly, let me ask you this, because you said you really focus in on the business owners and professionals, generally the primary breadwinner. Now, if this is someone a person is concerned about, tell us a little bit about why it's so helpful to have that specificity of your practice there.
Holly Moore:
So in California, my personal opinion is that the law is really skewed to what almost feels like a punishment. It feels like the law is skewed to punish the breadwinner of the family. They don't receive any benefit from being the one that worked or being the higher earner or anything like that. In fact, it seems like they have a lot of disadvantages. They generally are given less time with their kids. They end up with these really, really large support orders. I don't know exactly how other states do their support orders. The only thing I know is California has the highest ratio of support to income, so they end up with these huge support orders that are paralyzing for them to even move on with their life because they can't pay their own bills for their household plus pay child support and spousal support. So that bothers me as somebody who I feel like I've worked really hard to get where I am and go to law school and pass the bar and build a law firm.
So I feel them on an energetic level of, oh my gosh, you've built your business or you've become a doctor and you've worked really hard to provide for your family, and now, whether you wanted a divorce or not... I mean, in a lot of cases they don't even want the divorce, but if the spouse wants it then they're getting it, and they end up with all these orders that just basically paralyze them in the future. So it's my mission to mitigate any of that. I mean, I think everything should be fair, and I think sometimes you have to level the playing field if you do have a spouse that hasn't been in the workforce forever. But in a lot of cases, the spouse sometimes is highly educated, very capable, they just don't want to work. And so I just think everybody should pull their own weight, however much weight you can pull. Whether it's working at Starbucks or going back into being a heart surgeon, you should do what you are capable of doing to help the family as a whole, so that's why I dedicate my work as a lawyer to that.
Heather Quick:
Well, that is really interesting. I, of course, have a bit of a different point of view.
Holly Moore:
Yes, I know you do.
Heather Quick:
Yeah. Well, [inaudible 00:14:23]. Okay. Now, this is not reflective of the law, not yet, but it would probably be unconstitutional, I'm sure. But the way I feel is if you are the female breadwinner, then no, you should not have to pay support, because I guarantee you're doing just as much work at home than not, and your spouse is probably just taking advantage, versus if you are the wife supporting the husband by taking care of the home, then you absolutely should get as much alimony as possible. So it's a very skewed view.
Holly Moore:
Yeah. So Heather, let me ask you this though. So do you think that evidence should be put on in terms of, okay, who's giving the baby a bath and who's going over homework? Would you have it so that evidence would be solicited or elicited on those points?
Heather Quick:
Oh, absolutely. Totally. What we have here in Florida, which I'm sure is similar with their differences, but you have all the factors that support an alimony award, and that includes what have you done at home and what have you done to support your spouse in their career, in their business? Now, I will say that those are the factors, and our law clearly states that it is not gender specific. And so there is level of proof that certainly needs to be other than he said she said, for sure. But what I see more often than not is that you may have... Ours is also an ability to pay and need, so you have to show the need. But very often, mostly when it's women, not always, but if they have the ability to pay, the husband may not have the need, because they may work. Maybe they just don't make as much and/or they're capable. I think that we're going to see a shift, say, 20 years from now, because so many more relationships tend to be a bit more equal.
I do still remember the movie Mr. Mom. I sure hadn't seen any of that going down, for sure, but I'm sure [inaudible 00:16:44] down there. And that is always a hot topic. I'm sure we could do a whole show just on differences opinion of alimony, but mine certainly does change because I represent women. So are they eligible for it, or they might have to pay it. But I'm just always on their side to limit their exposure or maximize what we can get, because it's really not crippling, I don't think, the award you get, in this case. It could be more in California, but everything's higher in California, right? Everything costs more, more taxes, lots of things are more, so maybe it is.
Holly Moore:
True. Okay. One last question, though, on that point is do you see any gender discrimination in the Florida courts? Are they skewed one way or the other?
Heather Quick:
Ooh. You know what? I'm going to answer that after the break, just to leave a cliffhanger, because that's a good one. And I'll probably have to consult the production team as to whether I can say what I really think. But anyway, we'll take a short break, and when we come back back we will talk about some gender and equity, potentially, in the courts.
Thank you for joining us again. And if you are fortunate enough to listen to the show before the break, Holly posed a very good question about whether I think that the Florida courts are skewed one way or another, either for men, against women or against men. And I'll tell you I do. Despite the language and the statute, I do think we are still overall rather female friendly in some regards. And this is really good that you ask this question, because it depends on your lawyer. If you don't have a good lawyer, they're not going to put the evidence forth for the court system, which is what we're going to talk about in what to consider when hiring an attorney. But I am in the part of Florida... And you have a much larger state, Holly, which I know it's probably just worlds different from Southern California, where you are, to Northern California. And even though the statute for the state, the laws are the same, I'm sure the interpretations vary greatly.
I am in the northern part of Florida, which is very close to Georgia, and so that is close to the deep south, so I would say that those are just some of the perceptions at the end of the day of the judges. And I think in the family law division, as we speak now, I mean, I think we've got maybe two women out of 15 judges, and no racial diversity whatsoever. And there you go. That's their life experience, so you have a lot of older white men judges who maybe they've always been the breadwinner, their wife has stayed home. Sometimes that can be favorable. Sometimes they're divorced, not favorable. Maybe some have had kids, maybe some haven't. So they can't help but allow that to come into play. I think that would be more specific compared to, say, South Florida, Miami. I mean, that's a metropolitan city compared to... Well, it is. It's a international hub, and there's just a lot more going on. So I would say it'd be more prone.
And then there are a lot of small little towns in Florida that you'd be like, "Wait, I thought we were in Florida." It doesn't look like Miami or South Beach or Disney World. It's very rural. And it's going to be different application of the same law based on the facts that are presented. So the better your lawyer, the better they can present facts to support your side.
Holly Moore:
Absolutely. Yeah. And believe it or not, even being in Southern California, I have the same experience as you. Most of the judges are still older white male judges. And I think despite the fact that everybody will tell you, "No, there's no gender bias. We start at the point where it's like everybody's on the same level or same playing field. We start at the premise that they're going to share the kids equally," I think men, in our area, still have a little bit of an uphill battle, particularly when it comes to custody of kids and things like that, and I think it's because the judge's inherent bias of just their generation. So yeah, similar experiences.
Heather Quick:
I hope we'll see that change. I mean, obviously I only hope it changes when that benefits my client, right? [inaudible 00:21:26]
Holly Moore:
Right. Of course. Yes. Well, you're a good advocate, Heather. Yes.
Heather Quick:
I am. True. I am. But I think that's one of the things that this conversation hopefully can help women. Obviously it's women winning divorce, so they're probably the majority of the people listening to this. But when they're going to hire an attorney and what to consider, I think some of that is do they know the things that you and I were just talking about? How do the judges rule? What is it like out there based on my issues? What do you know as far as how that would happen? I think that's an important thing to ask, as well as what kind of team do you have? Holly, tell us a little bit about a client wanting to come to your office. I mean, you want them to ask, right? "Hey, what's your team going to look like? Is it just going to be Holly and a cell phone or you got a whole office?"
Holly Moore:
Yeah, absolutely. So we have a team of I think we're somewhere around 20 people on our team. A couple attorneys, paralegals, legal assistants. We also have a team that's completely dedicated to basically client service, so when a client calls us for a consultation, we do consultations complimentary, but they're going to meet with our client relations manager and she's going to basically talk to them about their life. "Where are you now? What's keeping you up at night? What's making you unhappy, and where do you want to be?" And then we see if they're a good fit for us, because, of course, just as much as they're interviewing us, we're interviewing them to determine if this is going to be a good fit and we're going to be a good team together. So yeah. And then, like I said, there's a couple different attorneys, so clients would be assigned to an attorney based on geographical location of their case, because we do service a wide area here in Southern California and even a little bit in Northern California, and also the issues.
I love the super duper complicated financial divorce cases, usually high net worth cases. One of my associates absolutely lives and dies for custody cases, because she wants to really add a lot of value in cases where kids are the primary focus. So depending on issues, area, personalities, they'll be assigned their legal team, and then we just guide them through all along the way and hopefully take some of the burden and worry and anxiety off of the client.
Heather Quick:
I think that's a wonderful approach. And I was teasing about that, the cell phone and you, but we both know that that is out there. And they're a lot of lawyers who just, for whatever reason, they operate like that. I think not even "The Lincoln Lawyer", which I watch every single legal show and movie out there. People are like, "You do this, why do you do that?" And I do like "The Lincoln Lawyer." That's been a fun show.
Holly Moore:
I have not seen that. I need to start watching that.
Heather Quick:
Okay. Yeah. And that you can watch with the kids, like not every show on TV.
Holly Moore:
Oh really? Okay, good.
Heather Quick:
Yeah. So the one with the movie, he does have his investigators, but basically just his car is the office and riding around on the cell phone. I know that in the past there have been clients who think that's what they want, because they just want to have immediate access to you, and it doesn't work that way in our firm because that's really not in their best interest to always have a lawyer billing you to talk to you, right? So often the paralegal is just way better suited for the day-to-day work and things that have to happen. But I think it's important question to ask, because I think that clients, they're like, "Well, no, I want to call you and I want to know you will talk to me right now." That's going to be a smaller law firm or just a single person, because they don't, frankly, have as much to do, so they can-
Holly Moore:
I was going to say that's a person that has no other clients.
Heather Quick:
It may be because that's really hard to do, and also an attorney who has very little balance and boundaries, because it's not appropriate to have late night calls and weekend calls, most often with your family law attorney, because courts are closed. There's not anything we can do. I know that we try to really help educate our clients, but at the end of the day, they have expectations because of the shows they've watched, that I've watched that are on TV. That, "Well, I'm just going to be texting with my attorney all the time."
Holly Moore:
Right. Yeah. And I know so often clients will ask, "What are the attorneys billable hours," and we tell them and they're like, "Well, so-and-so, they're billing at this and it's less." But they don't realize in so-and-so's firm that's billing for less, they're also doing every little thing. They're also standing at the copy machine billing that same 350 an hour. They're also calling the court clerk and being on hold for an hour and all of those things. Where the firms with a bigger team like yours, like mine, we delegate all those things down, so you're being billed for attorney time when it's true attorney work, and everything else is going to be at a much less billable hour, and I just think that's so much more efficient for the clients.
Plus, I know here the attorneys are in court pretty much every day, so if clients are calling, calling, calling, the paralegals are there to field their calls, and our paralegals answer most of the questions, because a lot of times it is something where it's, "When's my next court date," or something like that. You don't need an attorney to answer that question, or, "Please help me fill out this financial disclosure," or things like that. And if you had to wait around for your attorney for those little questions, and your attorney's always in court, that could get really frustrating.
Heather Quick:
Agree. And I think it is because the paralegal does do all that. And in our office, all of the documentation, the discovery that gets exchanged, the financial, so all of those factual questions about, "Well, when is this scheduled and when is this due," the attorney, most likely, is going to refer you to the paralegal anyway. So they'll be like, "Keep working on that." And I think it does work better for just you can talk to somebody, because we both know family law brings with it its own level of stress and anxiety for any of our clients. And even though it may, on its face, like a minor issue, when you have to wait two or three days for an answer to a minor issue, then it feels like it's so much bigger, right?
Holly Moore:
Right. Absolutely. Yeah, sometimes you just need to get it off your chest and have somebody listen to it. And yeah, again, if you have to wait around for your attorney to get back from court or have some time to do that, it's just better to have another person that still knows your case and that you know be able to handle those types of calls.
Heather Quick:
Absolutely. Now, one of the things I think that is really important, we've talked a bit about it, but you talked about essentially that initial meeting. Your staff and your client relations team is interviewing the client as much as hopefully they're interviewing you, because you've got to determine a level of comfort with one another and alignment with goals and trust, right?
Holly Moore:
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I would even go further than that and say there has to be some sort of alignment even on core values. What is important to you? I know when we've had clients in the past that were not a good fit, a lot of times it comes down, if you really back and you think, "Yeah, what was most important to them? What did they really care about? What were all their actions geared towards achieving, and then what is it for us," it's totally a misalignment of core values.
Heather Quick:
And sometimes that's really hard to pinpoint at the beginning, but so important. And I think for anybody listening to this, and you haven't met with an attorney yet, you really need to, if you can really think about this, because many attorneys can get it done, the technical part, some obviously better than others. But it's that next level, I think, that is going to really affect your experience, and affect your trust. I'm certain this has happened to you because it always does, where you have a client and they hire somebody else to begin with, much to their dismay, of course, which is what I always thought. That's unfortunate that you didn't hire us first, because now we got to clean up their mess.
And sometimes it's not a mess, but somewhere along the way it was either the misalignment with values, something happened to cause a mistrust, because I know I've said this to many women over the years, right now, that there is no trust there, so they could be advising you great advice that really is in your best interest, but now you're in a position that you don't believe it, which then that can harm you as well. The foundation has got to be the trust and belief that your attorney, one, knows what they're talking about, but they're truly acting in your best interest.
Holly Moore:
Absolutely. And that's a really good point, Heather, because I think a lot of times the people are coming to us, and I will say I have experienced this more with women than men, where they're already having trust issues because of what went on in the marriage. And this is at the top of my mind because I just had an experience with a client where I'm like, "You've got to trust me. I promise I've got your back. I'm working for you." But she had such a hard time trusting because she had just lived a life where she realized she couldn't trust anything. Ultimately, yeah, if you have an attorney that you don't trust, I mean, that's not going to work out, because they could be the best attorney in the world, but if you're going to second guess everything they tell you or you're not going to follow their advice, then why be paying them? I mean, you're paying them to be your guide. So yeah, trust is huge.
Heather Quick:
Yeah. And too often I think that things happen, because family law, I think it's constant with any probably practice of law, but it's constantly educating them, yes, we do talk to the other attorney, and we don't really just yell at each other on the phone or do those things, not in court like on a movie, because we've got to get you a resolution. It doesn't mean I'm friends with him. Maybe I am, maybe I'm not. So I think for many folks, I think going through the process, they really underestimate how seriously we do take our ethics and our license and what we have to do as far as that level of confidentiality that we have for them. Because quite frankly, most people don't operate like that, right?
Holly Moore:
Yeah. That's so true. The same client that I mentioned before, she never wanted me to talk to opposing counsel because she was so terrified he was going to bring me over to his side and then we'd conspire against her. And it's like, "I am not risking my bar license. I'm sorry. Your ex-husband isn't worth it to me." But yeah, trust. It's huge.
Heather Quick:
Absolutely. Well, Holly, we're going to take another break. And then as we finish up, we're going to dig a little bit more into, hey, those initial strategy sessions with attorneys and those consultations, what's some things that you should think about? And we'll start there in a moment.
Holly Moore:
Sounds great.
Heather Quick:
Well, we are back, Holly, for the last segment. And what we are going to talk about and maybe dig into a little bit is those initial strategy meetings with the attorney, whether that's... In our office, that's really what we do first. We do an interview process over the phone, and then when they come in to get to meet with the attorney and client liaison. So that's the way we do it. But that's a big step, regardless, because I think for anybody knowing they are about to meet with an attorney in regards to a divorce, it's a big step. I know that most women have thought about it, the statistics say, for at least four years prior to actually making the move, and I think in a lot of cases even longer than that. But I think it's helpful to help women and potential clients know what to expect and really how to make the best use of this time when they get to meet with their attorney.
Holly Moore:
Yeah, absolutely. I think a lot of times they're nervous. They don't know what to expect. They're like, "I'm coming to meet you. Is my divorce going to be final today?" I mean, maybe it's not that bad, but yeah, it's foreign territory to them for sure. So in our office, like I mentioned, they'll do a consultation. Anybody that's considering hiring our firm, they'll do a consultation with our client relations manager first, and that's really more of a big picture conversation. "What's upsetting you now? What do you not like about your life? What would you like it to look like, and can we get you there?" And then after that, if they decide they want to move forward with our firm, we set a two hour meeting that we call a Q and A, a question and answer session. And we tell clients this is going to be a huge exchange of information. You're going to have a lot of questions for your legal team, because the meeting is with their assigned attorney and assigned paralegal.
You're going to have a lot of questions for your legal team. They're going to give you a lot of answers. And likewise, your attorney is going to have a lot of questions for you. Hopefully you'll have answers for them. It's just a really big exchange of information. And then hopefully towards the end of that meeting, after all the facts have been brought out and everybody has the lay of the land, the attorney gives a high level blueprint of what this case is going to look like going forward in terms of, "We may need to hire this or that expert. We may need to do this or that evaluation," things like that so that the client has an idea of what to expect. And then of course, we make sure that every client leaves that meeting with knowing what exactly are the next steps, what is the firm going to do, and when. "We're going to prepare this piece of paper by February 1st, and then also the client is going to get to us tax returns by this day." So they know the immediate next step.
Heather Quick:
Now, do you ask them to bring a lot of financial documents at this initial meeting?
Holly Moore:
It depends. We don't have a blanket requirement that every client bring in tax returns and stuff like that. It depends. Some clients will want certain documents reviewed prior to their Q and A. If we know this is going to be a heavy financial case or we're going to really need to dive into incomes or something, then the client relations manager will reach out ahead of time and say, "Hey, send some financial documents over two days before to make sure your attorney can review it before the meeting," and things like that. But we don't have a blanket requirement for that because we feel that every case is a little bit different. Sometimes it's not a financial issue. So that's how we handle it.
Heather Quick:
Yeah, and I think it does. It depends, and not everybody's got everything at that time, and it's really based on the questions you ask them. We don't need it the very first meeting, because then we're set an additional strategy session and we'll go into more at that point where we create a case plan and your whole strategy. But I do think for anybody going into the consultation and that initial meeting with an attorney, they need to be open and honest, because we can only give advice based on what we hear. And that's where that goes back to what we talked about earlier in the show, that trust, that you need to be able to be honest and feel as though you can be in order for the attorney really to give you the best strategy and advice.
Holly Moore:
Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. In fact, I say the same thing at every Q and A meeting, because one of the things that we do during that meeting is we'll run support numbers on software that's mandated by California or sanctioned by California to give them an idea of support. And I write it on a pre-prepared sheet, and there's a big star. And I also tell them, "Okay, now, these numbers are based on what you just told me. If in the future somebody tells me much different numbers, or if a different truth comes out that these numbers are much different, the result is going to be much different," because there's been times where it's like, "Yes, I make a hundred thousand dollars a year," and we run numbers on that and it's like, "Okay, your support is X," and then they fail to tell me about the $200,000 bonus they get every year, which changes it significantly.
Heather Quick:
Oh, but let me guess, Holly, it's not every year. You can't rely on it.
Holly Moore:
It's discretionary. I know, right? Oh, if I had a nickel for every time I heard that.
Heather Quick:
It's the truth. I know. And I think that's so important though, because it is based on what we are told. But I also think part of that is the responsibility of the attorney to ask a lot of questions and allow the client to speak. I always like to advise anytime I give any information on what you should expect, you should expect to be talking a lot. I think for a client to go into the attorney's office, if the attorney's doing all the talking, then they're maybe not listening. Obviously they're only listening to themselves, because the client is not talking.
Holly Moore:
Yes, I could not agree with that more. Yes. I feel like I can say this because I am an attorney, you are an attorney, so I can bag on them a little bit, but we love to hear ourselves talk and we think we're pretty smart. And so I think sometimes the tendency in a consultation is for an attorney just to talk the whole time, and that's really not effective for the clients. I agree. The attorney should be asking a ton of questions, because the clients don't know what they should be telling you. Sometimes they don't know that, "Oh, you mean it matters that the down payment to our house was from an inheritance? I didn't know that made a difference," which in California it absolutely does. But yeah, it's the attorney's responsibility to be pulling the information out of the client, because the client doesn't know. So yeah, I agree. Questions. Your attorney should be asking a ton of questions.
Heather Quick:
And really, obviously, like you said, there's only so much advice, but we can make a plan, because many times we haven't seen all of the financial documents, so it's like, "Hey, these are predicated on what you've told us." But I think so often what we have an opportunity to do in family law, from my perspective, is we can achieve amazing results, because yes, we have the law, but man, there's so many facts that as we apply them, and if you're able to really draw out all the facts, many times you can get some pretty great results just because you were willing to find the information and ask the right question, which is a wonderful thing for our clients when you're willing to go that extra mile, and because you do know, "Hey, this one fact on its own may not make a difference in the custody or the relocation, if you're moving, but boy, once we have all 10 of these various facts, we at least can make a compelling argument that could be persuasive for your side."
So I think that for any woman going to meet an attorney, they better ask a lot of questions. And don't be afraid to share. If they tell you, "I don't need to know that," that's probably a red flag, because you never know. We always tell our clients send us every information, tell us things, because as the case pans out, we may or may not need that, right?
Holly Moore:
Yes. Yeah. So one thing I would add, in addition to asking a lot of questions, is actually listening to the client, because similarly to you in family law, there is a tendency for clients to call you all the time. And sometimes it's just venting, right? It's not a pressing legal question, but if you listen to the client, sometimes you're just picking up little pieces of data all along the way that you can either use to your client's benefit in trial, in settlement, or really helping them to be able to crystallize their goals, things like that. So yeah, listening, I think, is also really important.
Heather Quick:
Yes, it is. All right, Holly, well, we're about to wrap up, but before we do, I really would love to know, this is obviously a podcast titled Women Winning Divorce, and if you could share with our listeners what you've learned about divorce and representing women throughout your career.
Holly Moore:
Oh my gosh. Well, I feel like my career has been one big unofficial experiment in human behavior, or one study of human behavior, and I find it fascinating. So I think, gosh, I've learned so much about people and about women. I think one of the things that I've really learned is people do really crazy things when they're hurting. Even good people, they can get a little crazy when they're hurting. But the other thing I think I've really learned is as a family law lawyer, we can't just look at these cases as legal cases. It's so much more. It's complicated because we're dealing with the unraveling of an interpersonal relationship, which I think is the most complicated thing on this planet, is how we all interact with each other. And when you're talking about spouses or two parents that had a child together, it's super complex. And I think that the clients really need additional support in addition to legal support, whether it's counseling, whether it's some sort of personal development work, something, because divorce is really, really difficult.
And just the fact that you're unraveling this marriage or this relationship is really hard, but then if you add to it the process of it, the actual legal process, I don't know if it goes any smoother in Florida, but in California it's just really frustrating. And, like I mentioned before, it's expensive and it takes forever. And so you've got the process, but you've also got the whole emotional thing about it, and it's a lot to take on. And I think particularly for women who maybe aren't always as good at compartmentalizing and just stuffing it down and not dealing with it, I think getting additional support other than just the legal support is a must so that they're able to navigate it better, make good decisions when they're making decisions that are going to affect their future.
Heather Quick:
Well, I appreciate that so much because I absolutely agree with you, and it helps because that support is, one, crucial during the divorce, but then also after, because they have a whole life to live after this, and this is not really going to define you for the rest of your life. You want to grow from it and move on.
Holly Moore:
Yes, absolutely. Yes. That is always the hope. But yeah, some people, they are defined by it for the rest of their life. And to me, that's just tragic.
Heather Quick:
Yes, indeed. So I so appreciate having you on our show today, Holly. Thank you so very much.
Holly Moore:
Thank you for having me.
Heather Quick:
Absolutely. We'll have to find a great topic that Florida is very different from California on, and then do that maybe in the future. So we'll have to put our heads together and think of that, because I think that to me is always very interesting, so different. As a side note, I was speaking with an attorney, that was the show that aired prior to yours. North Carolina? Oh, girl, it is different. It is different.
Holly Moore:
Oh, really?
Heather Quick:
It's so different. Yeah. It's deep south as far as... This is my perception, but well, it is true. It is the deep south. But you have to physically live in two different places for a full year. Physically live. You can't be like, "No, we're outside the bedrooms. I live on this side. He lives on this side. We are separate." No. Absolutely separate physical residence for a year before you can file.
Holly Moore:
What?
Heather Quick:
Yes.
Holly Moore:
Oh my gosh. We have so many people that stay living together for a long time.
Heather Quick:
It's just they have to economically. Our divorces take a year at least sometimes.
Holly Moore:
At least, yeah. Wow. That's interesting.
Heather Quick:
Anyway that is shocking. So we'll have to compare notes, figure out something, and put that in the future. But until then, thank you so much for being our guest this week, Holly Moore. And for you listeners, if you are curious about Holly and what's going on out there at California in her law firm, you can find her at moorefamilylawgroup.com.
Holly Moore:
Thank you, Heather. This has been fun.
Heather Quick:
Thank you for joining me for this episode of Women Winning Divorce. If you or someone you know is looking for answers regarding divorce, reach out to us at floridawomenslawgroup.com, and also join the conversation on social @WomenWinningDivorce. Women Winning Divorce is the place for an elevated conversation on how women can thrive during times of adversity in order to live their best life.