“Women need to be financially savvy. They need to take control of their finances. Don’t give those reins to someone else, don’t become complacent … that is when you are giving up your control and your access to your finances.” – Lisa Zeiderman, Esq. “You need to understand your assets, not every asset is divided equally.” – Lisa Zeiderman, Esq. In this episode of Women Winning Divorce, Heather Quick is joined by Managing Partner at Miller Zeiderman LLP in New York, Lisa Zeiderman, to discuss high net worth divorce and what woman need to know.
About Our Guest
Lisa Zeiderman is a highly accomplished attorney in all areas of matrimonial and family law. Named both Crain’s New York Notable Diverse Lawyer and a Business Notable Woman Lawyer for 2022, Ms. Zeiderman is also a Certified Divorce Financial Analyst, and a founding member of the American Academy of Certified Financial Litigators.
Lisa regularly handles complex financial and custody divorce matters for high-net-worth individuals. While handling high profile and high-net-worth cases, she shows the utmost discretion and respect for her client’s privacy.
She is also very active in her community and civic organizations. She is passionate about empowering women through financial knowledge and education.
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"Women Winning Divorce" is a radio show and podcast hosted by Heather Quick:Attorney, Entrepreneur, Author and Founder of Florida Women’s Law Group, the only divorce firm for women, by women. Each week Heather sits down with innovative professionals and leaders who are focused on how you can be your best self, before, during or after divorce.
In these conversations, we are looking at how women can win at life. With our guests, we enjoy the opportunity to explore ways all women can win and enhance their life, no matter where they are in their journey, because divorce is just point in life, not the end and not what defines you, rather it can be a catalyst for growth.
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This program was created to provide tips and insight to women with family law issues. It is not intended to be legal advice because every situation is different.
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Heather
Welcome to Women Winning Divorce. I am your host, Heather Quick. I am an attorney, entrepreneur, author, and founder of Florida Women's Law Group, the only divorce firm for women by women. I love thinking big, thinking outside the box, creating creative solutions for women and empowering women to win in all aspects of their life. Our approach at Florida Women's Law Group is to provide women with a strategy to not only achieve their objectives but win at life. I believe that what may show up as adversity is simply an opportunity to change and improve your life.
In each episode, I sit down with innovative professionals and leaders who are focused on how you can be your best self before, during, and after divorce. In these conversations we are looking at how women can win at life. I have the unique opportunity to meet women when they are at a transition period of life, but that is only the beginning to becoming your best self and winning at life on your terms. With our guests, we enjoy the opportunity to explore ways all women can win and enhance their life no matter where they are in their journey. Because divorce is just a point in life, not the end, and not what defines you. Rather, a catalyst for your growth.
Welcome to Women Winning Divorce. Each week we discuss issues including divorce, custody, alimony, paternity, narcissism, mediation, and other family law issues, provide insight on the journey of women winning divorce. I'm Heather Quick, owner and attorney of Florida Women's Law Group. Today I'm joined by Lisa Zeiderman. Welcome to the show, Lisa.
Lisa:
Thank you so much, Heather, for having me. I'm really looking forward to our discussion.
Heather:
Absolutely. And for our guests, Lisa Zeiderman is a managing partner at Miller Zeiderman, LLP, based in New York, a matrimonial attorney, CFL, we're going to talk about that, and a CDFA. So lots of initials behind her name. And she regularly handles complex financial and custody divorce matters as well as pre and post-nuptial agreements for high-net-worth individuals. So Lisa is a perfect guest for this week's topic, which is high-net-worth divorce and what women need to know. So Lisa, tell the listeners please a little bit about how you got into family law, and always I'm curious, why you stay in it?
Lisa:
Well, I got into family law because I had gone through my own divorce. So this is my second career. I had actually a business in the fashion industry for many years and had started that straight out of high school, basically. I went on to 7th Avenue and worked in 7th Avenue in a major retail designer apparel company and then actually went through my own divorce, found the information and the case information very interesting and decided that I wanted to do this for other people. I also found frankly that a lot of the issues could be resolved if only attorneys actually could service their clients and if only they were responsive to their clients.
So that was really a piece of what I had determined as to why I went into it. And the reason I stay in it is I think that we help a lot of people. I think we help a lot of people in terms of custody issues and a lot of people in terms of their financial issues. And I feel like we have developed a group of people, group of attorneys and paralegals who are equipped and who are prepared and who can really be an aide to people who are going through a divorce.
Heather:
Well, that is fascinating and I completely agree with you as far as I believe, and it sounds like you do, too, as attorneys we have such an obligation to our clients to educate, help them really understand the issues and what's going on, the pros and cons. And often I know we find ourselves and you can tell the other side is not really aware or ready to negotiate or settle.
Lisa:
I think that's 100% true. I think that you have to be prepared from day one after you have your consultation with your potential client to understand what the issues are and what the goals are for your client and then to be able to work through the case, paying attention to the details and the facts of the case, and either take it to a resolution, through settlement, or if necessary through litigation. But in order to do that you need to understand the documents. You need to actually review the documents. You need to make sure that you understand what the estate is that you're dealing with and you also need to understand the complexities including the tax complexities, including division of executive compensation. There's a lot of information that I think attorneys don't necessarily delve into and as a result the clients actually don't do as well as they could.
Heather:
Yes, I agree. And you've got, which we'll talk about that because tell our listeners what the CFL and the CDFA and the differences with that because I know we all want to know.
Lisa:
The CDFA is Certified Divorce Financial Analyst and it's program that's given through the IDFA and I have been certified as a Certified Divorce Financial Analyst. What I think it has educated me to be able to do is to spot the issues in terms of tax issues, in terms of spousal support, in terms of division of executive compensation and to understand what the differences are. For example, one of the key differences in retirement accounts is whether or not you have a Roth IRA or do you just have an IRA. If you have a Roth IRA to be divided, that's actually going to be an asset that is more valuable than the equivalent IRA asset because in Roth IRAs the taxes have already been paid.
And so that CDFA, actually that certification, actually gives you that educational background. It also teaches you that not every asset is divided equally in terms of it's not all worth the same. So you could have a home, for example, that maybe has equity of $1 million, and you have a retirement account has that has $1 million. Well, is there a capital gains tax that's going to be due when you sell that home? Are there taxes when you withdraw those monies from the retirement accounts, what taxes are going to have to be paid? What penalty might you actually incur if you're actually withdrawing those monies from your retirement account before retirement age? All of that needs to be negotiated. And so one of the key issues is when you look at the assets, even though assets may look equivalent, they're not equivalent. And I think that CDFA actually hones in on some of those issues so that you can educate your client as to the division of the assets.
Now, the Certified Financial Litigator, the CFL is a course that is given by the AACFL, which is the American Academy of Certified Financial Litigators. And that is a more complex case, in that they really delve into areas such as executive compensation. In fact, I've lectured on that particular area with one of my colleagues, Stacy Francis, who is on the board with me for Savvy Ladies and also has a financial advisory service. So she and I have lectured on this the issue of dividing restricted stock units, dividing stock options and those are the kinds of more complex coursework that is given through the AACFL, as well as understanding the tax returns, the business tax returns, the line items in those tax returns that you could be looking at.
Heather:
Well, we could talk about just one of those things probably for the whole show because you know so much, which is amazing, and really helpful because I think that what I found is, first, the lawyer needs to know and understand what we're looking at and then that helps tell our client, "Okay, we may need to get an accountant in here, forensic, maybe somebody separate to testify because I've looked at all this stuff and I'm telling you these things and if we're going to be in front of a judge, the judge is going to need an explanation of this as well." Right?
Lisa:
100%. And I was just in a consultation with a woman the other day and she said, "You're the first person who brought up the valuation aspects of my husband's business and the fact that you need to value the appreciation of his business." He had started the business way before marriage but the business has appreciated significantly. And she said, "You're the first person who brought up using a forensic accountant. You're the first person who I've consulted with that has brought up the fact that we need to value both parts of the business. In other words the business at the time of the marriage and then the business now because we need to actually figure out what the appreciation is."
And so it is that real information that clients need and sometimes we're the second attorney on a case where I actually see the file and I say to myself, "Oh my goodness, they have spent so much money and they have so little to show for it. What has anybody been doing on this file?" And it's not that we're inexpensive because, frankly, we're not inexpensive, but what you get is actually we are going through the file, we are actually reviewing the documents, we are making sure that we get the discovery, that we do the depositions, that we actually understand what the breadth of the estate is. And I think that's really important.
Heather:
I so agree with you and I have seen that, too. And we feel the same way because you get a case, it's in the middle and they tell you how much they've spent and you know they probably have, but then you look at where they are because very often they're like, "We haven't done anything." I'm like, "No you haven't, nothing has occurred. And unfortunately I can fix it but you're going to have to spend just as much money because we need to understand it but actually take action so we can move you forward."
However, too often I think that our clients, they may go to the first attorney they find. They don't really even know enough to know the right questions and the further they get along, sometimes I think it's hard because they're like, "Oh I've already spent so much money, to change." And I recognize all that and it's unfortunate because I think you and I both feel the same way. It's like, "Well, if you'd come at the beginning, we'd be a lot further. It's not that you're not spending the money, it's just that you're making progress with that."
Lisa:
Exactly. You need to make progress in your matter because otherwise you're not going to move it to resolution.
Heather:
Absolutely.
Lisa:
And your attorney needs to understand what that means.
Heather:
Exactly. And so hopefully our listeners will know that and we can help them at least start to ask the right question. And so let's talk about defining a high-net-worth divorce because we may have different definitions of that, but I want to ask you, how do you define that in New York? Because we're in Florida here practicing and maybe it's different, but I'd like to know how you look at that.
Lisa:
I think in New York, to me, a high-net-worth divorce is probably going to start at about 10 million and go upward from there. And so it could be anywhere from 10 million to 200 million, depending upon perhaps there's a valuation for a company, et cetera, that may exceed. But I think to live in Manhattan there are significant assets that someone needs, whether it be to actually have their apartment, if they have two or three children and they own an apartment in the city, that is probably already a significant asset and they are going to have to earn significantly in order to, if they decided to put their children into private school, if they have religious school expenses, if they have tutoring, extracurricular activities, all of those are expensive. Therapists, developmental pediatricians.
So I think that, from my point of view, high-net-worth is probably 10 million and more. I'm not saying that if you have five million or you have two million or you have a million, that that's not a significant asset. But it is hard in New York to actually make all those expenses and plan for your retirement if you're not making sure that you're saving significant wealth.
Heather:
Yes, I mean because obviously it's very different from where we are in where I am located in northeast Florida, which we have a lot of people from New York relocating and it's not as high of a cost of living at all because we're not as big city as where you are and even different from, say, Miami. So I think it's helpful for people listening, really, wherever you may live, it's going to be different. Obviously, the more metropolitan, the more things that you're going to probably experience in your costs than other areas.
Lisa:
100%. And I think it's also where you are in your life. I mean, if you're in your 20s and you've already saved significantly, that's very different than being in your 60s and having saved significantly. And so you need to look at that as well as to whether you are in a good financial position. And keeping in mind that once you divide those assets, they're going to be divided in New York equitably, whatever that will mean. It doesn't always mean equally. And that will depend upon the length of the marriage, the health of the parties, somebody's separate property, income disparity. I mean, there's a whole host of ways to look at and factors that will be considered in dividing up your assets.
But I did have someone about probably a month ago who I had a consult with and she said, "We have about $10 million in assets," and she said, "I guess we're middle class Manhattan." And I was just so struck by that. Because $10 million is a significant amount of money no matter how you look at it. And yet by the time she had gone through it, there was hardly any real cash assets because they had saved for their retirement and they still had many years of work left to go and they had their apartment which had equity of probably half that of the 10 million. And so once they put the retirement accounts together and the equity in the apartment, there wasn't actually that much liquid cash or in brokerage accounts to actually divide up.
Heather:
Yes, and I find that a lot, very often, I mean house and retirement are going to be the bulk of the assets and that's not liquid, not readily available. And even if they're close to retirement, you. Can't live off that. But then we have the question, okay well you have this large property. It's got to be divided, and that upkeep, which goes into a full inventory of the assets and liabilities because then that's how we can determine what exists and what does this mean? Okay, the $5 million apartment, well, it's going to be worth what somebody pays us. And then obviously what the equity is out of it.
Because I know often, and sometimes this can be a shock. For our clients we represent only women. They don't know. They're not aware of the intricacies of the financials, and sometimes they are, sometimes they're not. But one of the things that I see often, and I don't know that I can say age is a factor one way or another, but there is a large amount of income being made but yet the equity and the savings with which to divide may not be there, which can be eye-opening for many people.
Lisa:
That is so true. It's expensive to live and if you're not very conscious of what you're spending, what your burn rate is. And that's why it's so interesting when we actually do someone's net-worth statement because they can actually look at their burn rate and then if you take the taxes out from the income. So we've subtracted the taxes now, we've subtracted the monthly nut, and there's not really so much left sometimes.
Heather:
I know. Which is, like I said, disheartening and eye-opening for many people. But we are going to take a quick break and when we come back we are going to continue to talk about the pros and cons of high-net-worth cases. And while you wait or if you're about to join us, please visit womenwinningdivorce.com to subscribe and check out our resources and we will be right back.
Welcome back to Women Winning Divorce. Today we are discussing high-net-worth divorce with Lisa Zeiderman from New York and it's really interesting for me, and hopefully for the listeners, when I get the opportunity to talk to a professional and a lawyer who's in a different state because it's just different and we learn so much. I do, anyway, about the differences. Sometimes there's a lot more similarities but the intricacies of our different states are always fascinating.
And today, if you're just joining us now, we are talking about high-net-worth divorce cases and I would say that there's definitely pros and cons. Sometimes it can be a little bit more straightforward but then there's other things that make it more complex. So, Lisa, what are some of the things that you see in a higher net worth higher income that you say, "Oh this is a little bit more straightforward"?
Lisa:
Well, so straightforward versus not straightforward. We're looking at whether is there a separate property claim that someone is making? That makes it more complex because now we're having to trace sometimes separate property and we could have to trace it for a significant amount of time. People who are often in second marriages or marry later in life may have accumulated or accrued assets that could become separate property.
And so in New York, if you can actually trace your separate property then you can actually receive your separate property as your sole and separate asset. And so that's something that you need to pay attention to and you also need to let your attorney know. Inheritances, for example, could be separate property. The question is whether someone has commingled, and that's an expression that we use quite a bit in New York, whether they have commingled those assets with marital assets.
Now, sometimes you can actually commingle assets but do it in such a way that maybe it was only for convenience purposes. That's another thing that we look at. So let's just say that you got your inheritance and you put it into a marital account because that was the only account that there was at the time or perhaps the most convenient account to put it in for reasons. And then 30 days later you moved it. Well chances are good that you're going to get your inheritance back or perhaps you were transferring assets, due to some other reason, into a marital account and then out of a marital account. Maybe that was just the most efficient way, essentially, to receive assets in. And so again you have to go back through that issue. That is one area.
The other is we talked a little bit about stock, restricted stock units, that there may be a separate property component there because, in New York and as in many states, we use something sometimes called the DeJesus formula, if the restricted stock units are something that are being given as compensation for work to be performed, in other words an incentive, like golden handcuffs. Or is it going to be for work that you've already performed, such as a bonus? That actually also may have a separate property component. So you need to actually look for that and that makes it a little bit more complicated.
You may have come in to the marriage with a prenup. Maybe you and your fiance at the time signed a prenuptial agreement. And so that has to be carefully reviewed and that may actually also identify separate assets. And then the question is identifying where those assets are because we could be 30 years down the road from the time that you signed that prenup. So these are all issues that make it more complicated. Maybe there's a deferred comp component in the case, maybe there are various homes and properties that need to be valued. Maybe there's artwork that needs to be valued. Maybe there's separate property artwork.
All of these make the issues more complex. And of course figuring out if there's evaluation of the business and what the actual compensation is that somebody is receiving through the business or could be receiving through the business because there may be loans taken that actually should be income that is recaptured. We don't know that till we look at all of the facts, but these are all things that make a case more complicated than less complicated.
Heather:
Yes, I agree. But it's so important because, especially the stock, and we won't go too deep into that because we may lose interest and really confused people, but the thing they need to know is we need to look at it, and there is a difference. Because the higher the executive, higher the income, I think, like you said, that golden handcuffs, the more valuable they are to that company, they have set up a bunch of stuff to make it harder to leave but worth it in financial gains. So there is a lot there and not all of it would be considered marital here in Florida because if it's future that's not going to go to we're dividing it, even in the future. Or in Florida that we would look at that as income for the purposes of alimony after we've divided the assets.
But I find that to be very important. And also you mentioned the artwork and that sometimes we'll really overlook that and there's a lot of value and, at least from my perspective, if it's my client and they're overlooking, that's fine if you're keeping it. You have all this jewelry. But regardless, those things generally need a personal property appraiser, art appraiser, to get the full picture so that you really understand. Even though that's not cash, like we talked about in the first segment, a liquidity, it's still there to be divided and the more of it there are, the more art, furniture, things that really have value that appreciate over time are important, I think, to be [inaudible 00:23:45].
Lisa:
That's so true. And even in high-net-worth cases, sometimes you have wine collections, for example. You might have very extensive wine collections. You might have watch collections. As you said, jewelry. All of those need to be considered in a high-net-worth case because they could be worth many millions of dollars. I mean, when you add up jewelry and art and wine collections and some of the other collectibles, those could be significant assets. And one place that people could look, for example, is the insurance policies to see was there a separate rider for some of these items that might give you some indication.
For example, an art collection, you might want to look at the rider of your insurance policy. Some people, if they have significant art collections, are going to have a separate rider for that, appraisals conducted, et cetera. And they may be doing it on a yearly or every-few-year basis where they are really watching the prices of their art.
Heather:
Absolutely. Because you do want it insured and you want to make sure as it rises in value, if something were to happen. Same with jewelry, you just want to make sure that's insured. And that's a great point for our listeners to think about. Do you have insurance policy? That's a good way to get some information if you're not quite sure what exists or to the extent. It's a great starting place for many women who may be unsure about that. So let's talk a little bit about property. Because we're going to hit alimony for sure after this segment.
So in Florida, I mean, we're more of a separate property, not a community property state. And we just talk about the non [inaudible 00:25:36]. And we have very similar, I think, interpretation, based on what I've heard from you, because we'll look at an inheritance, same thing. It's coming and that's where we try to really advise women coming in for a consult or through all of our resources, if it's yours that wasn't due to your work and inheritance or before the marriage, keep it separate because that gives us more of an opportunity to protect that person.
Lisa:
Yes, I think that that's the big lesson here is that if you are coming in with premarital property or if you get an inheritance, you need to keep it separate. And that does not mean to keep it just in your name. That means to keep it separate from your marital monies, the monies you earned during the marriage, the monies that you may actually, perhaps you're given some sort, and I hate to say this word, but it happens to a lot of women, some sort of an allowance and maybe you don't spend all of that allowance and maybe you're putting it into an account and then you say to yourself, "Oh, I'll put the inheritance into that account as well." You have now just commingled the monies and that is the problem. So you need to be very careful about keeping the documents, keeping the information and keeping that money separate.
Heather:
Absolutely. And in my experience, so it's just in my limited my experience, however I've found that men tend to be really much better at that than women. And so I think it's also important that when you're married and you're moving into his house, please pay attention to who's on the deed because then 15 years later, but it was still his property, only in his name, and that's significant in Florida. I mean, we will look at the appreciation, but we can't force the sale if it's fully in his name. We've got to-
Lisa:
Well, see, that's different. That's different in New York. In New York we don't just look at title. Title does not determine whether or not it's a marital or separate property asset. So if for example, you were to be put on the deed of a property that your husband owned prior to the marriage, what would end up happening likely is that there would be an appraisal as of the date that you got married. So in other words, let's just say that that home was worth $2 million when you actually got married. Well, that's an appraisal that can be done.
And now it's worth $10 million. And we actually go one step further. So now there's that $8 million difference, which is the appreciation of the home. The question becomes whether that appreciation was passive, did it just go off because of the market going up? Which in New York is not so unusual. Or did it go up because you renovated it and you put your blood, sweat and tears into doing that renovation and you were the person who was picking out the light switches, the faucets, every single... the carpets, the floors, everything that made that apartment essentially appreciate in value.
And so that would then be an active appreciation situation, likely. And we have the ability in New York, through certain appraisers, to actually determine whether something is passive or active in terms of appreciation. And for an active appreciation then you're going to have some sort of distribution, likely. For a passive appreciation, maybe not. And you could be on the title and maybe not, still.
Heather:
Wow. So that is very different in Florida. Basically, it's presumed a gift. It's going to be such a burden to try to prove that that really wasn't the intent to put the spouse on there and there won't be a premarital value with that. Or what typically happens is you sold maybe your property and then that was the down payment for now the marital home. Nope, it's marital. Depending on the look-back. If that happened six months ago and now we're divorcing, we might have more of an argument there because of the time. But five years later, 10 years later, no, not at all. That's going to be all marital split whether passive or active.
Lisa:
No, in New York that we definitely give what's called a separate property claim. And the case law points to that separate property claim. There are very few cases that will run in the direction that you just described as two separate properties. So if that spouse can actually show, for example, the closing of that prior home and the money going into the new home that is now jointly titled, that spouse will get likely a separate property credit against that new home, whether it's titled jointly or not.
Heather:
And that makes the difference. So in Florida, if it remains individually titled, yes they will, and then we'll do the analysis you talked about. But that's just got to be if it's only in one name, because then there'll be a marital component to it that we will evaluate. But if it's jointly titled it's shared. And this is interesting, Lisa, I've heard this more than once, that the woman was the breadwinner or had sold the home, she said, I have heard this more than once, "They told me at the closing I had to put his name on this." Do you believe that? I'm like, "You don't have to do that." He might need to sign a note, something because he'll have potentially some estate rights or homestead claims maybe if he's not on the mortgage, but he can be on the mortgage, he can be on the deed.
Lisa:
Interesting.
Heather:
I'd love to go back because that's of course not true. You don't have to [inaudible 00:31:42] they ask you. So maybe that was their impression. But anyway, I've heard that over the years more than once. And for women listening, you do not have to do that. Well, we are about time for a break so when we come back we're going to talk about the differences in alimony and specifically in a high-net-worth divorce because it's a little different and sometimes because there are many assets to be distributed that's going to affect your alimony, at least here in Florida. So we will be right back with Lisa Zeiderman, talking about high-net-worth divorce.
All right, we are back with Lisa Zeiderman talking about high-net-worth divorce and what women need to know. If you are just joining us, you can listen to the first two segments at womenwinningdivorce.com and we are now going to talk about the differences in Florida and New York as it relates to alimony and high-net-worth case. So Lisa, I will let you go first. I know there's a lot there and I want to hear the difference.
Lisa:
Sure. So I think the biggest issue is what are the assets to be divided. Because the assets to be divided may actually give off significant income. And so one of the things that we would look at is what income is actually going to be given off from the assets to be divided? We're also going to look at the party's ages. I mean if everybody is in their 70s, it's highly unlikely there's going to be a lot of alimony because how long is everybody going to work, especially with significant assets? So that's another point, age, health of the parties, those are all important.
And then of course we're going to look at the lifestyle that someone was leading. So that goes back to what I said earlier, which is what is the burn rate. Now sometimes it's difficult to figure that out. And then we hire some sort of an accounting firm who actually can do what is called a lifestyle analysis. So they can go back and they can analyze all the credit card statements, bank statements, all of these spending that has gone on and try to figure out what is the lifestyle analysis.
So sometimes you look at the husband's net worth statement who may be actually obligated to pay alimony, it looks like they aren't spending anything. And then you do the lifestyle analysis and you find out they're spending over $100,000 a month. And that wasn't actually on that net-worth statement from the husband. And so if you're going to either resolve it through settlement or through court, it's important because how is a judge going to look at these two very different net-worth statements without having some sort of an expert who has gone through the information and can put together a credible report as to what the spending is. So we've had that situation and the judge is stymied at first, without having that lifestyle analysis done.
But if you go through the net-worth statement and then you actually have the lifestyle analysis done, and then you figure out what are the assets that everybody's going to have and what the shortfall is going to be and what the earning potential is for the spouse who's going to be paying alimony. Because remember, if you're dividing those assets, that person's going to have the income also on the other side of the fence. So you've now divided the assets and let's say it's giving off, I don't know, $50,000 a month, but your expenses are $100,000 a month, and that person is still able to earn significantly. Maybe they're in their 40s or 50s. They may have another 20 or 30 years that they could be earning.
And so it's important to look at that as well as of course the length of the marriage because in New York alimony does not go on forever. And so it's really important to understand it is usually some sort of a proportion to the length of the marriage. And so there is what we call statutory guidelines and then the court will have the discretion to go above in terms of amount and the duration of the actual statutory guidelines, depending upon the lifestyle.
Heather:
In Florida, we have permanant alimony that has been much debated over many years now. Everyone was certain it was going to go away probably seven years ago, I think. The time goes quickly. But hasn't been up for a while. I'm sure it will, and that's a pretty tough pill for many people to swallow. But if you are married over 17 years, it's presumed that you'll get permanent alimony.
Lisa:
Wow.
Heather:
Yes. So now many people can be in their 40s and married 17 years. And of course that's just one indicator, which I'm certain there's many factors in New York as well. But it's one of the factors. And again, we look at the age of the parties and the ability to work. Often, we have a client woman in her 40s who is educated and the children are going to be leaving the home. Because that's also a factor. I'll let them know, that's one factor but I think that there's so much more. You're probably not going to get permanent alimony, but you'll certainly get for a duration, what we call, could be as long as the marriage, but most likely not in those particular cases.
But there's a lot of room for argument before the court, a lot of room to make a huge difference for a client based on their attorney's ability to do the lifestyle analysis, really understand the financial situation and make sure [inaudible 00:37:30] court order to provide them with the best opportunity for the most alimony.
Lisa:
Yeah, in New York, I have to say that in New York I don't think that the courts are very kind, generally, in terms of alimony. There is an expectation that people will be working and there is an expectation that they will be working sooner than later. And so alimony, yes, it's definitely something that is given and it is definitely given for a period of time, but it is very rare and I mean very rare, unless there is truly a serious health condition for someone to get permanent alimony.
I would say in my entire career, it's happened maybe once. And so it is really the rare case. It is usually a percentage of the length of the marriage and we have actually step-up, so the longer the marriage, the longer it would be, but it definitely is based upon the length of the marriage for the most part.
Heather:
That's fascinating. Yeah, and definitely, that can be a very litigated issue. But I have several cases with permanent alimony, on many occasions. Even trials, of course, because they weren't going to settle to pay permanent alimony. But the law was certainly on our side. Now they will, as the law's involved as I've been practicing family law, and now there will be income imputed to the wife or husband, but we represent women only. But either way, the law does state, if you're able to work, but then what we do often in Florida is a vocational advisor because it may be that this person really has never worked or it's been so many years. So that comes into play very often for the person opposing alimony to say, "Well, this expert says they can earn, however much, 30,000 a year." So then that will be applied and there still may be a deficit if the court were to decide that the alimony would fill.
But we still have permanent alimony. Very often at retirement, the husband will go in to modify it and it's more likely they might get a modification rather than a termination because it just depends on when they were divorced. And I know you know this, as well, you have the high earner, okay, they've got to split all the assets and they may have to pay alimony here in Florida, they probably would. But then they're going to recoup it all because they're still working.
And usually once people hit their strides, certainly by the time they're in their 50s and when they're already an executive making a lot of money, generally speaking, they're going to continue. So now they even have more that they're receiving in retirement. So it's harder for them because they still have the ability. And so when they go back to modify, it just depends on the spouse, if she still has that same level of need. So that's the evaluation when they go back.
Lisa:
That's so interesting. It's very different in New York. I mean in New York we do have a vocational analysis sometimes done to impute income to either the wife or the husband. And certainly that is done. But this idea that women are going to be taken care of or men, for that matter, for the rest of their lives, that is just not something that is looked at in New York. There is definitely an end game here. And I will say, for women who, and this is particularly for women, but sometimes for men, women who have given up their careers in New York and stayed home and taken care of children and then waited out their divorces until those children go off to college, for example.
And I see more and more of those women. And they gave up maybe their earning power for 15 or 20 years and it is so impossible for them to re-enter into the workforce at any significant amount because, to your point, somebody is hitting their stride in their 50s. Well, these women are coming back into the workforce in their 50s very often. And while they may have started at exactly the same place as their husbands when they were in their, let's say, 20s or early 30s, they gave up all that earning potential.
And so they might be going out and earning $60,000, let's just say, and their husbands are earning in the millions and they will never end up recovering that. They just will not. They won't recover it through alimony, they will not recover it through assets, they will not recover it. And so I think women, particularly in New York, obviously, need to be encouraged to either stay in the workforce or to enter into some sort of a prenup or a postnuptial agreement whereby they are compensated for this time that they are leaving the workforce, because I'm telling you that they will not make it up.
Heather:
I hear you. And that's exactly what I was thinking when you were saying that. So if you're listening and that could be you or that's your daughter, your friends, please tell them, you give up so much and you're not going to recoup it. And even in Florida it sounds like you might a little bit more, but we can still protect you in a prenup/post-nup, to help you out with alimony in the situation like that. Because very often, as we both know, it's a joint decision at the time, but come divorce, not that it matters and think that I wanted you to work or need you to work, but that person you loved and you two made a joint decision, isn't going to say, "Well, of course I'll do." It really is so important to understand that. I agree with you 100%.
I know so many women just don't think there's a need for prenup and that's the prime example, their alimony. Because also, who knows if the laws will change in Florida, at some point they will. They've been pushing this for so long, but the law always evolves. And it's important, though, if you are going to give that up, that you get something in return at the event 10 years later, like you said, when you really can't even... Even, you're a lawyer and you stayed out of practice, it's going to have changed so much and you're not going to go in at the level you would've been if you had stayed for 10 years. Same if you're a physician. So even professionals, they have the education and they're almost worse off because they're going to be like, well, you can make all kinds of money on the alimony, trying to pay to support yourself and you will have lost a lot of that ability.
Lisa:
It is just so unfortunate. And I think that women, particularly, don't really understand that this is the reality and that the deal that you make, that "I'm going to stay home and don't worry, I'll take care of you and I'm supporting your career," and somebody saying to you, "I will take care of you. Don't worry. This is for us," that us will end very shortly in a divorce and that person will not recollect, likely, that they ever made that deal.
And it may be that they really don't recollect it, that that in their minds, was what you wanted to do. And maybe they asked you, "Do you want to go back?" And you said, "No, I'd rather stay with the kids." And in your mind that was a joint decision. But I'm going to tell you that it happens over and over and over again. And you need to be really clear in a document that is signed and acknowledged, and that is in a contract form, of what your compensation is going to be in the event that there is a divorce.
Heather:
Yes. Especially, my goodness, in New York, for sure, but anywhere. Anywhere. Because you're thinking about your future and you're going to say, "I'm going to give up that potential career for me, for our family and our children, and you're going to benefit because I'm not asking you to stay home and you are, ane we're both going to benefit if we believe I do a good job with our kids." So you've got to think about it that way in the end. But I know the more you see it, the more, I think, passionate we get about it because we're just trying to ask women to listen. Listen, it's not all happily ever after all the time. So we want you to protect yourself.
Lisa:
Absolutely.
Heather:
Well, we are nearing the end of the show and this has just been so much fun, Lisa. I really appreciate it. I could talk to you, I haven't even touched on so many things that I want to talk to you about. So we're going to ask you come back at some point, and I hope that you will.
Lisa:
I would love to.
Heather:
But I would ask, before we leave, if you can impart on our listeners what you've learned about divorce and representing women through your career.
Lisa:
What I would say I've learned is that women need to be financially savvy. They must take control of their finances. And I don't know if you know this, Heather, but I am on the board of a nationwide organization for women's financial literacy called Savvy Ladies. And they have a free helpline for women to actually call in and have their financial questions asked. And we get questions all the time from women who don't have control of their finances.
Don't give those reins to somebody else. Make sure that you understand what your net worth is, what the income level is, review the tax returns. Don't be complacent about it because when you become complacent is when you're giving up your control and your access to your finances and, in the event of a divorce, you're going to need that access.
Heather:
Absolutely. Yeah. We could not end on a better note, Lisa. Thank you. And we will definitely, for our listeners, put that, because I didn't even get into the Savvy Lady, so that'll be for the next show for sure. That'll be what we'll talk about. But I will definitely put the link in the show notes. And we are so thankful to have you, Lisa. This was a great discussion. I'm hopeful that our listeners got something out of this. And for our listeners, you can find out more about Lisa at lisazeidman.com and her bio and social links will be provided in our show notes, as well as information on Savvy Ladies.
And if you or someone you know is going through a divorce or has questions about family law issues, whether in Florida, call us at Florida Women's Law Group, or in New York, you would reach out to Lisa because we are here to help you and guide you through this. And as you've listened, we ask you to give us a five-star review so that other women can find our podcast, radio show, and help us through these times.
Lisa:
Thanks so much, Heather.
Heather:
Thank you for joining me for this episode of Women Winning Divorce. My goal is to elevate your life in the way you are thinking so that you are best equipped to win at life. If you enjoy the show, please subscribe so you automatically get my new shows every week, and I would love to hear from you personally. Come join the conversation on social and join our Facebook group, Women Winning Divorce. We welcome your comments and suggestions. We want to bring you content that helps move your life forward. Women Winning Divorce is the place for an elevated conversation on how women can thrive during times of adversity in order to live their best life.
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