Women Winning Divorce with Heather B. Quick, Esq.

#55-Getting Rid of the Guilt and Shame of Divorce with Kristen Marcroft

Episode Summary

“Women have been and still are holding up the world. If we could get out of our own way, we could also rule it.” Kristen Marcroft Esq. Heather Quick, attorney and owner of Florida Women’s Law Group, discuses letting go of the shame & guilt of divorce with Kristen Marcroft, Managing Co-Partner and attorney of Freed Marcroft in Connecticut. They cover the difference between shame and guilt, how divorce causes shame & guilt and how to overcome.

Episode Notes

About Our Guest

Kristen Marcroft is the Managing Co-Partner and Attorney of Freed Marcroft in Connecticut. She has unlimited bounds to break down any legal and literal walls that stand in her way. Kristen’s approach to her legal practice is as hands-on as her approach to life. Kristen’s law firm devotes its practice exclusively to divorce and family law. Her specialties include estate planning, family law, real estate, litigation, business and non-profit planning, and LGBT immigration law.

Notable Links:

Social media channel links:

 

"Women Winning Divorce" is a radio show and podcast hosted by Heather Quick, CEO and Owner of Florida Women's Law Group. Each week we focus on different aspects of family law to help guide women through the difficult and emotional legal challenges they are facing. Heather brings over 20 years of law experience that advocates and empowers women to achieve happier and healthier lives. Join Heather each week as she discusses family law issues including divorce, custody, alimony, paternity, narcissism, mediation and more. This program was created to provide tips and insight to women with family law issues. It is not intended to be legal advice because every situation is different. Visit us at https://www.womenwinningdivorce.com/ for more resources. Text us at 904-944-6800 for a copy of Heather's Top 5 Divorce Tips. If you have questions or a topic you would like Heather to cover, email us at marketing@4womenlaw.com

 

If you would like more information or resources, please subscribe below:

 

This program was created to provide tips and insight to women with family law issues. It is not intended to be legal advice because every situation is different.  

Episode Transcription

Heather Quick:

Welcome to Women Winning Divorce. I am your host, Heather Quick. I'm an attorney, entrepreneur, author and founder of Florida Women's Law Group, the only divorce firm for women by women. I love thinking big, thinking outside the box, creating creative solutions for women and empowering women to win in all aspects of their life. In each episode of this show, I will discuss how to navigate the divorce process, come out stronger and empowered on the other side.

Welcome to Women Winning Divorce. Each week, we discuss issues including divorce, custody, alimony, paternity, narcissism, mediation and other family law issues, provide insight on the journey of women winning divorce. I'm Heather Quick, owner and attorney of Florida Women's Law Group. Today, I'm being joined by Kristen Marcroft, managing co-partner and attorney of Freed Marcroft in Connecticut. Welcome to the show, Kristen.

Kristen Marcroft:

Hi, Heather. Thanks so much for having me.

Heather Quick:

Absolutely, it's just such a pleasure. And last episode, we had the opportunity to talk with your partner, Meghan, and I'm so excited to have the other half of Marcroft and Freed on the show today.

Kristen Marcroft:

Happy to be here.

Heather Quick:

Well, good. So, this is always my opening question, Kristen, as far as helping our listeners get to know you a little bit. But tell us a little bit about what has drawn you to family law and keeps you there.

Kristen Marcroft:

So, I would say that, over the life of our firm which is about a little over 10 years now, I would say family law found us more than we found it. We started as a general practice doing a little bit of this, a little bit of that as firms so often do particularly when they're young. And we knew pretty early on that, if we wanted to grow, we'd have to get really good at one thing. And Meghan and I didn't even really have much of a conversation about it, we both knew what the one thing was and that it was family law. And I think ... I lost an iPad, I'm going to let it go. I think that, probably some of the same reasons for Meghan, Meghan has personal experience with divorce and so has feelings about how it was ultimately a very positive thing in her life and that, now, she and I are married.

And for me, I don't have any personal experience with divorce. My parents never divorced, in the course of my life throughout my family there, there really isn't any divorce. Arguably, there probably should have been one or two. But for me, I think the attraction to it was just that it's not transactional, the people part of it. And at the end of the day, for me, what is really motivating to me, what gets me out of bed thinking about it and working in this practice area is, really, I think of it as a transformation those times. And they don't all go that way but those moments with clients where you just can see them changing and getting through something really, really hard that, at 201, nobody wanted. No one got married expecting that they were going to get divorced.

But then there's these moments where people, you just see them start to see a future, a different, a better future. And that I do have experience with in the course of my life, going through something hard, challenging that I never saw happening, never would chosen and then looking back on it now and being grateful for a lot of the hard pieces of it because I know they're responsible for getting me where I am now which is pretty great. So, really, if I had to boil it down to one word, that's it, it's the transformation.

Heather Quick:

Which is so wonderful. And I think that is really, when you love family law like we both do in our firm, it's because it's not just a transaction. We love the people, we love to see what the people go through and we know how much we can impact what their ultimate outcome is because there's so much that having great lawyers who care about you can do for you in a divorce. Not all cases [inaudible 00:04:09] doesn't matter as much, I think. Because the more you're willing to listen, the more creative and the more you can really help people with that better future. So, I love that about your firm because too many family law attorneys don't love it. We don't talk to them on this show, we don't invite them [inaudible 00:04:25].

Kristen Marcroft:

They're not our kind, dear, yeah.

Heather Quick:

That's right, that is right. Now, in this episode, what we are going to talk about, which I think is going to be a great conversation to get your take on it, but the shame and guilt that so often women feel after the end of a marriage or the beginning of divorce, basically knowing this is where they're going. What's been your experience in seeing women going through these emotions during their divorce?

Kristen Marcroft:

Yeah, I think rarely are they not both present at least on some level or at some point leading up to the divorce, during divorce, after the divorce. And I think that, so often, that divorce is perceived as a failure, the ending of something. And as I said earlier, it's not something people were thinking about when they were getting married and not something they saw their lives becoming. And so, I think there's just both of those emotions, guilt and shame. Guilt for whatever they perceive as their roles in the breakdown of the marriage, shame really for the same reasons, how they're perceived by their family, their kids, their communities. And at the end of the day, we work really hard to try to honor both of those emotions because they're real but to get people out of the shame mindset because there's just no moving forward in it, it's really just limiting.

Whereas, guilt, we all experience it and it too can be limiting but, at the end of the day, it's really just about taking responsibility for, we say for your 100%, not 50%. We always talk about relationships in terms of being responsible for your 100% and the other person is responsible for their 100%. And you can feel guilty about maybe things that you would've done differently or said differently but then, at the end of the day, taking responsibility for that, forgiving yourself for that and then moving on. As opposed to shame which is just a place that you can really spend a whole lot of your life in and it just doesn't get anybody anywhere.

Heather Quick:

Yeah, I think that is such a great way to explain it and really make the difference in the two. And I don't know, I think that, when we talk about divorce, a lot of it is still taboo and there is that, well, somebody failed, what did he do, what did you do, right?

Kristen Marcroft:

Yeah.

Heather Quick:

Versus, openly, it's okay to talk about mental health struggles, even emotional issues and nobody's asking whose fault it was. What do you think about that? I think that there is still a fear of judgment when saying I'm getting divorced.

Kristen Marcroft:

Yeah, I think that's absolutely true. I think, again, it's historically been perceived as a failure. It's certainly not something that has historically been applauded or recognized as really being, in my opinion, the courageous act that it is. And sometimes, there are, so often, the issues that you mentioned, mental health issues and all sorts of things like that but, at the end of the day, sometimes people just also grow apart, they change. And sometimes people, whether they got married young or didn't and had kids or didn't, sometimes people just fundamentally grow apart and, at the end of the day, this is it, we only get this one life.

So, to me, people choosing that they're going to be happy in this one life, including if that means ending the marriage that they're in, that to me is about the most courageous act that a person can do. And I also think that, particularly for parents, showing that courage to their kids. At the end of the day, to me, if people care about their being less divorce, I don't know a better way to do it than for people who are unhappy to decide to move on into something more happy and show their kids that there's courage in choosing your own happiness and there's courage in deciding that there's a certain kind of relationship that you're going to accept and then there's a certain kind of relationship that you're not going to accept.

And it doesn't have to be cast in this negative light as I think it historically has been. Whether there are mental health issues or it's just, like I said, we once were happy and we're just not now.

Heather Quick:

Mm-hmm. And I think back to what you talked about at the beginning and why this is the area of law for you is the transformation. Because sometimes I think it's just more than happy but it's easy to say, hey, happy but it's, really, are you really living your full potential. When you're not, you're depriving everybody else of what you're capable of, including your children, if you are not fully who you should be and you're staying in the marriage because you think, well, I have to stick it out, I owe it to everybody. But then you haven't helped anybody because you're not this fully present human who is giving everything they've got to the people around them, to maybe their occupation or just whatever it is. Because I think, when you are in this place of a bad marriage, there's just very little you can do for yourself or anybody else, really. It can be all consuming.

Kristen Marcroft:

Yeah, yeah, it certainly can be all consuming. It's almost living a fake life. And that takes a lot of energy to be out in the world pretending something is other than what it truly is. And I like the way that you said that, I think, at the end of the day, yeah, it's diminishing yourself and depriving the world of who you really are and, more importantly, could be.

Heather Quick:

And I think that it's the failure that is what people perceive as so bad and they're so afraid of it. Yeah, but it takes two to make it and it takes two to break it, right?

Kristen Marcroft:

At least, yeah.

Heather Quick:

Like you said, it's, yeah, take your 100% for your part but it's not all you, it just can't be, it's impossible to be all one person's fault. And even that, I think, can be hard when you're this spouse who doesn't want the divorce and you're like, "But he's cheating." And I think we've both had those clients in the past and I get it. I'm not a mental health counselor and working through it but I know there's pain there and I see, more often than not, women get to the point, by the end or even maybe years later, where they say, "I can see now." They may not say I have played a part but that they at least acknowledge that that marriage didn't succeed for both of them which is a great sense of growth for anybody because, otherwise, they're like, "Well, I fail. He cheated on me so I must be a very good wife or good cook," or all these other things that cause them to leave but it usually has to do more about them.

[inaudible 00:12:21], you have to separate yourself from this shame as if ... One, is if you owe an explanation [inaudible 00:12:30]. Your children, they're part of your life so you're going to have to have dialogue and talk about it but it's not ... Maybe the word is people are looking for something to justify it and, when you feel like you found anything to justify it, you feel guilty.

Kristen Marcroft:

Yeah, right. And I think at the end of the day too, and this is certainly true in divorce but I think just in life, I think that, when we do exactly what you said, look at the things that happen in our lives, the good, the bad, the ugly and, in this case, most especially the bad and the ugly and even, if there's cheating or whatever the case may be where it feels like there is occasion to try to assign blame. Even in those instances, if the person to whom those things happen to finds a way to take responsibility for whatever their role may have been, and it could be something they didn't do, it could be just tolerating a relationship that was less than, really, what they wanted or thought they had gotten into.

It's taking responsibility for whatever your role is, even in the thing that maybe you felt like a victim in it, is empowering. And it doesn't justify whatever the behavior may have been, cheating or whatever the case may be, but it's empowering to understand, oh, I probably did play a role in how this ended even if there were things that happened to me that I don't think I would've done to somebody else. It's empowering to just take responsibility for it rather than live in why did this happen to me, I didn't deserve that. Those things can still be true but hanging out there is just a recipe for just another way of diminishing yourself and the life that you could be leading.

Heather Quick:

Agreed. Now, let me ask you this. Just what your perception is and experience. Because we represent women only, obviously we have this one-sided view on that but I believe and I've seen this play out a little bit, women maybe tend to feel more responsible for the relationship in many cases. And so, then, sometimes maybe that leads them taking more of the blame or accepting failures that their husband may push on them.

Kristen Marcroft:

Yeah. As you said, we represent both men and women but I agree with you. I think there's just fundamental differences in the way that women move through the world than the way that men move through the world. And I do think that women tend to shoulder more or be, maybe, more introspective. What did I do, yeah, how did I fail here, what could I have done differently and why is this happening to me and how could I have done better. I do think there's just a different, like I said, different way of moving through the world. We do represent both but I agree with you, we see that in our practice as well.

Heather Quick:

Yeah. And I think it's just part of ... And a lot of times within the podcast, we're just giving information, not only to the women listening, but also, hey, you're not alone, right?

Kristen Marcroft:

No.

Heather Quick:

These are feelings that we've seen that our clients have. And one of the greatest things, and we had this come up actually in a big firm meeting with some initiatives that we're doing, but one of my attorneys said, "Our clients can't always see. We wish we had the lens of how they were at the beginning of this process and then to see themselves now." Because it very easy for us to see this transformation, see how overwhelmed they are with this decision and, even if they want it, sometimes they feel guilty, sometimes they feel more guilty if they wanted it. [inaudible 00:16:40].

Kristen Marcroft:

Yeah, often. Right.

Heather Quick:

And so, that weighs on them because those are heavy emotions that, like you said, aren't really productive. But then, as they can begin to come out of that and see that future, they have totally transformed and they've been able to let that go [inaudible 00:16:59].

Kristen Marcroft:

Yup, yeah. And I think you're exactly right that, more often than not, if it's the woman choosing the divorce, there's just frequently more guilt. Maybe even more than frequently, maybe every time for making that decision. And I'm not suggesting that men don't think inwardly or what could I have done differently but I think, with women, look, they're still holding up the world, that's just the truth. I don't know. Fight me on that one, let's go because it's just the truth. Our firm represents men and women but we are predominantly comprised of women and it's just what's happened over the years. Not by design, it's just what happened.

And a lot of our women are moms so they're working moms and they're just still ... Even during COVID, when the school's open and then it's closing all of a sudden they don't call dad to come pick the kid up, the nurse doesn't call dad, the nurse calls mom even when they both have full-time jobs, careers, whatever the case may be. It's just the reality that women are holding up the world and the expectations on women placed on them by the world, never mind the expectations that they place on themselves, are vastly different and, in my opinion, more than is placed on men. Again, fight me on it.

Heather Quick:

Well, you are in the right place.

Kristen Marcroft:

I know you won't.

Heather Quick:

No. You know I won't but, anyway. Especially not on Women Winning Divorce, right? We're definitely talking about that.

Kristen Marcroft:

yeah, it's just the truth.

Heather Quick:

But I think it's quite great and, when we come back, we're going to talk a little bit more and how the divorce closets changed.

Welcome back for the second segment of this show. We are here today with Kristen Marcroft from Freed-

Kristen Marcroft:

Hello again.

Heather Quick:

... Marcroft in Connecticut and we've been talking about divorce and shame in a divorce and maybe some about what's the difference in the way that women in our experience tend to shoulder some of these feelings. And I think a little bit of that, which we touched on as we were going to break, but that a woman's nature leads her to take on all the responsibility sometimes. And I think, like you said earlier, sometimes that's expectations of the world but then sometimes we have to own it. We want to try to be in many control of everything, which is not [inaudible 00:19:53], but there's so little we control. However, with that comes that responsibility and then also the family. Women are definitely relational and there's a lot of that. When there's a divorce, it affects everybody.

Kristen Marcroft:

Yeah, it affects their own family and their friends and their extended family and, yeah, the tentacles are very far-reaching.

Heather Quick:

And they are. Many times, well, there is a loss, sometimes maybe it's a little bit more welcome than others, but to have a whole set of in-laws. And many times, those relationships are, particularly in a longer term marriage, those are solid relationships that can be difficult to navigate after the divorce and there can then be blame from that family on you. Because I think it's true, we both know, nobody knows what goes on inside a relationship, right?

Kristen Marcroft:

Yeah, right.

Heather Quick:

They look one way on the outside and-

Kristen Marcroft:

Yeah. And then there's the truth, yeah.

Heather Quick:

There's the truth. And so, I do think, because families get hurt or they're sad, but they [inaudible 00:21:13] a lot of judgment. And a lot because they don't really understand but yet you can be, really, in a position where you feel as though there's all family blaming you as the woman, talking about this from the woman's perspective, and how to deal with that.

Kristen Marcroft:

Right. There's just a reality to ... Whatever your personal journey is, whatever work you may have done on yourself, however evolved you are, have been, wherever you are in the process that you're going through, you can't also bring other people with you. Particularly when you're talking about in-laws, so you're talking about a whole other generation and then they've got all their, whatever they're bringing to the table in terms of how they perceive marriage, how they perceive divorce. And frequently, when you're talking about divorce, often the notion that you shouldn't do it, it comes down to try harder. I wasn't happy either but I stuck it out and it's-

Heather Quick:

Yes. Oh, I think that's common [inaudible 00:22:18].

Kristen Marcroft:

Yeah, right. Especially for women. And often, I think, women are the very best cheerleaders for other women but I think, often, they also can be the very worst. And it's you got to find a way to protect your own peace and understand, to your point, some of those relationships are going to survive and some of them aren't. And I agree with you particularly in a long marriage, it's not just the marriage that's the loss, there's so much collateral damage that can be a part of it. And I don't know that you can prepare for that just apart from recognizing that, at the end of the day, you can't bring everyone with you.

And so often, if there's blame coming at you from those relationships, really, at the end of the day, it feels very personal but it's not. It's them, how they feel about their own relationships, their own choices, their own, sometimes, lack of choices or at least making them and it's really challenging, I think, a lot of the time, to navigate that and I do think it's much harder for women than for men. Because I think, again, to your point, I think women just tend to be more relationship driven than men are. And so, there are some real losses that are part of divorce that extend way beyond the actual end of a marriage.

Heather Quick:

Now, it's all across the board. I see a lot of women that, really, once we get through the process, they come off a lot of medication that they may have been on to cope. However, I think, obviously, there are other women who really have a hard time and maybe they need that extra help and support. Now, does Connecticut have any specific services or anything that really is specific to any mental health struggles [inaudible 00:24:21] anybody during divorce?

Kristen Marcroft:

So, I wouldn't say that it's specific to that necessarily but what we do have in Connecticut is a very, and you do in Florida as well, we have a very robust collaborative divorce community in Connecticut and part of collaborative divorce are mental health professionals. And so, there's just network of mental health professionals who are very, very, very, very versed in working with families through the divorce, whether it's the actual adults and also with children. And probably about a third of our practice is actual collaborative divorce but we endeavor to bring those professionals in to all of our divorces to varying degrees of success, people aren't always open to that. But they're very good at just ... You don't want to tell people that divorce is row and every divorce is the same. They want to know that what you're doing but they don't want to feel like you don't got me.

But the reality is, with these mental health professionals that do collaborative divorce, they know what's coming for their clients. And so, we try to introduce the concept of, not just mental health professionals, but these particular mental health professionals who day in, day out work with couples and families who are going through divorce. So, I wouldn't say it's specific in Connecticut working with people going through a divorce, we just try to take advantage of the network of people that do exist who work in the collaborative field and bring them into even litigated divorces and also including help us draft our agreements.

Heather Quick:

Yeah, that makes so much sense. I think it's more by jurisdiction. So, locally, jurisdictions do require parenting classes but it's just a one class, [inaudible 00:26:24]. And they say it's not terrible. Obviously, it's not really personalized but we certainly, to touch on what you said, that, hey, therapy's great, therapy is just therapy. That is going to help you, without a doubt, but there are so many therapists that specifically do deal with either families, the individuals or children. But in the family law practice, understanding, like you said, what potentially is coming, what's best can really go a long way in helping the individuals go through that and even maybe repairing relationships with children and their parents during this process.

Kristen Marcroft:

Yeah, yup, for sure. And like I said, it's navigating the lines between your divorce and your family are specific to you and with all the nuances that exist from family to family and person to person. But then, at the same time, there are still themes, there are still things that are very common, things that we see when people are going through divorces, things that are common in terms of how people feel, problems that might arise or unforeseen, to them, circumstances that people who work day in and day out with people going through what you're going through, even though yours isn't exactly the same, it's still going to have enough similarities that you can, to your point, here's coming. Here are some things that you may not be feeling now but, in my experience, you might be feeling it down the road and let's get ahead of it and be willing to talk about it.

Heather Quick:

Yeah. And that made me think of something very specific because all these feelings and the sadness and the guilt and shame and then anger, they can feel in the beginning but then they come up and, most likely, later, when they really rise up again is when there are new significant others brought into the mix and sometimes they're brought in much earlier than would be advisable. Especially with therapists, because, as lawyers, I tell them all the time, "I'm talking to you from your legal advantage, you've got to talk to your therapist on what's right. I've got a lot of experience when we're talking about your case, I have that lens but many times there is the importance of the mental health people and things." Because you're amicable and you're like, "Well, no. We're just going to all get together every Christmas day with the kids."

And I've talked to people about that and I'm like, "Okay, maybe you just don't want that in writing because what if, the next year, he shows up with his new wife and new baby on Christmas day, are you going to feel the same way with your children and a whole new family. And I'm pretty sure his new wife isn't going to feel the same way." You just don't know what you don't know and trying to use from both sides saying is that really going to be healthy for you even though you want-

Kristen Marcroft:

And your kids, yeah.

Heather Quick:

And that's for every different couple to answer but I think it's one of those things that, sometimes, especially, I think, women, they'll make all these decisions but they're putting everybody in front of themselves. And then they're really angry because they [inaudible 00:30:11] at the bottom of the pile and it's still not working.

Kristen Marcroft:

And I think you raised a really good point because I think so much of this, the work that we do and this practice, is having the courage to ask questions like that. Uncomfortable questions, even when things are amicable, that's a good time to be making decisions. But at the same time, to your point, let's think ahead. I think it's our jobs to stand for, not just the person that's in front of us at present, but that same person a year from now, five years from now, 10 years from now. I think it's our absolute responsibility to stand for those future versions of our clients and ask them to consider things that are uncomfortable, that they aren't going to naturally consider in the moment so that we can be willing to have difficult conversations rather than being [inaudible 00:31:16] about it. Yeah, I'm sure I'll be fine with that when we know I think you might not be.

Heather Quick:

Right, right. And there would be reasons not to or to say you're always ... And like you said, obviously, we see the cases that go awry and then they're like, "I agreed to always spend Christmas Eve with my in-laws and now this is not what I to do." "[inaudible 00:31:41] but then I don't want the kids to have to go there, they're supposed to be with me," things like that. We see that when it ends badly but I think that is our job as well to raise that issue because they might be still in this I feel so guilty, the parents have always been good to us and I don't want make anybody mad or I feel so guilty but then you're setting yourself up for just more grief down the road.

And a lot of times you can't really talk people out of that, we try really hard on those things. I'm like, "You can do it. Why have it in writing and in court order that requires you to do something that will be difficult to change later on because feelings change."

Kristen Marcroft:

Right. And that your future self that you can't maybe see right now but I can isn't going to want that.

Heather Quick:

Right. Exactly, exactly. Well, this is a perfect time for another break and, when we come back with Kristen, we're going to talk about that future self and really how do you move on and what's ahead for you in the future.

Thank you so much for joining us again. We are still talking about shame and guilt in a divorce and those feelings. And as we move the last segment of the show, we're going to talk about how to overcome these feelings but really moving on. And I talk a lot about not being a victim and I know you do too-

Kristen Marcroft:

We do.

Heather Quick:

Because being a victim really does nothing to help you move forward. And it's challenging in our role as their advocate but also to help them maybe see that there's another way to view things. And I don't know, tell me, do you see your clients get stuck in that victimhood?

Kristen Marcroft:

Oh, yeah, day in, day out. And I think, to your point, it's not easy but this is our constant, ongoing conversation both with our clients and internally with our team. And I think it's important to help people see the distinction between being victimized. It's true that something can happen to you that you didn't deserve, that can be true but what can also be true at the same time is that you are not a victim. And that so often is a very foreign concept for people but we spend a lot of time talking about the TED dynamic and the two triangles. And over at one triangle is the victim and over in the other triangle is the creator. And we are constantly using that language with our clients and trying to get them to a place where they see themselves as creators because, when they're thinking that way, it's powerful, it's empowering.

Whereas, when they're in victim mindset, it's very difficult for them to make decisions, it's very difficult for them to see a way forward, it's very difficult for them to let go of the guilt, the shame, the things that are really just the diminishing beliefs that keep them stuck and unable to see a future, never mind move towards it. So, I would say, probably the most frequent conversations both, again, in our firm and then outwardly with our clients is about this.

Heather Quick:

And sometimes I think that it's, like you said, how can we because we are in a unique position of trust and authority with our clients and we're able to see it because we're on the outside looking in and we can do that to help them move forward and try to begin to change their view on their circumstance. Which I think was part of probably why you guys, like you said, in the firm you talk about 100% responsibility for yourself, not-

Kristen Marcroft:

For yourself, right.

Heather Quick:

... for everything, not for the relationship because you're not responsible for the whole relationship.

Kristen Marcroft:

Yeah, right. You're 100% responsible for your part of the relationship and they're responsible for 100% of their part. And that's a foreign concept too because we think of 100% as a whole but, from our perspective, each person is a whole and that's what we mean when we say you're 100%. Not that it's all on you, but that you are in charge of you and it includes how you act, for sure, but it also includes how you react.

And so often, even with people that choose it or actually make the decision that I want divorce, that doesn't mean that they chose everything leading up to it and, in fact, they pretty much never did. So, there's just this mix of feeling in control and then not in control and, the more that we can get back to decision making and choices and empowerment, the more that we're really moving forward rather than just staying stuck, not just in the present, but worse, the past.

Heather Quick:

Yeah, I think that the past and it really doesn't help you move forward. But then also you can begin to romanticize the past in a way that plays into this story that's not going to let you move on. Either, now, I'm just going to beat myself up and I'm such a bad person because it was so wonderful or just dwelling on that. And really, I think part of that moving forward in responsibility is also being able to forgive yourself as well as others.

Kristen Marcroft:

Mm-hmm, yeah. I think that comes first, really. I think that it's a lifelong challenge and I think a lifelong work in progress, the ability to forgive yourself and I don't think anything real can happen before you do that. For me, I don't believe that there's a true way forward into your full self, the life that you're meant to live unless and until you develop the skill to forgive yourself. I just don't, I think that has to come first.

Heather Quick:

Yeah, and I think that, many times, we treat ourselves the worst like we talked about earlier because we put everybody else first. But if we talk to ourselves sometimes in a way, think about ourselves in a way that we would never talk or think about our best friend or our sister or mother where you want to give compassion to yourselves. And I think that, at the end of the day, when you're going through a divorce, being able to forgive yourself because we're all human. We all have shortcomings and it's just you didn't, you weren't perfect in this marriage. Neither were they, right?

Kristen Marcroft:

Right. And I think that so often women are just infected with this notion that making choices for themselves, whether it's forgiving themselves or just choosing I want to move on to something more, that those decisions are selfish. And I think that too is a fundamental difference between men and women often that women have this limiting belief that, when they choose things for themselves, it's selfish instead of just deciding, when I choose things for myself so that I become the most actualized version of myself, then I'm here for all these other people that I care about. And when I don't do that, then I'm a lesser version of myself, yes, for me but for my kids, my community, my career, whatever the case may be.

And I think that it's the world that our moms were raised in, that, in many cases, we were raised in and it takes courage to just decide that's how I'm going to show up for the people that need me by choosing myself first and taking care of myself first so that I'm whole and present and able to be there for the people that I care about.

Heather Quick:

Yeah, I think that is such a great distinction. And sometimes I think that, I know in my experience in talking with so many women over the years, I found that they said, "We are both much better people when we're together. We didn't bring out the best in each other. And so, therefore when we are separate, we really actually were able to be better humans and better parents because something happened." And I think that does totally happen and it happens over time or at first maybe it seems like you don't realize it but then you recognize that you're not bringing your best when you're with this person or whatever that may be.

Kristen Marcroft:

Right, and that shows up everywhere. And t when you're living that way, that's how the universe is showing up for you as well and so it's never just one thing. If that's what's happening in your relationship, it's showing up everywhere else in your life. People don't always see that or maybe want to acknowledge it but it's just a fact. And when you make a decision to move on from that, to decide that I want more from my life, the universe opens itself up to you in ways that you can't even see.

And sometimes it's things that were there the whole time that you literally couldn't see because of the way that you were living and that, really, that's back to the transformation piece that I mentioned earlier. That's the most rewarding part of this work when you see that happen. The little steps forward and then something else shows up for them and then little steps forward and then something else.

And again, so often it was there the whole time but, when we're living that way, when we're living in this diminished way, we just don't see possibility out in the universe. When I know, and I know you believe this too, Heather, that there's nothing but possibility out in the world.

Heather Quick:

Yeah, I know. I think that, when we can continue to help women see this, because I think women suffer from this more than men, right?

Kristen Marcroft:

Yeah.

Heather Quick:

I just do in the relationship aspect and it really is what is your identity but part of your identity is being married and it's a little bit harder. I only represent women but I can speak from all that experience that it really does take a lot of courage to make that step and then move on from the feeling that do nothing to help you as far as the guilt and shame and then be a better version of yourself and, hey, not everybody does. Sometimes they just get divorced and they go off and they're of no benefit to anyone else but they had a choice.

Kristen Marcroft:

Yeah, it's a choice. Yeah.

Heather Quick:

They had a choice to be. And I think that most women, and I'm fortunate, having been doing this for so long now, that I still see clients 10, 15 years ago and even 20 and they're so happy. They're like, "My life is so different now," and it's just so rewarding because that's what we want, I think, for all people, is that they find a better way than they did. And I know focusing on the future certainly helps that and helps to get away from getting stuck. Last thing, Kristen, before we go, I would love if you could tell our listeners and myself what you've learned about divorce and representing women throughout your career.

Kristen Marcroft:

I think that I said this earlier that women have been and still are holding up the world and, if we could get out of our own way, we could also rule it. And that sounds like maybe a little cliché but they're holding up the whole world and I think sometimes they get caught up in I'm doing all of these things and I'm failing in little ways at all of them instead of seeing it for what it is that they're just heroic, they're just heroic. No one ever told men that they were selfish for choosing themselves and that's what the world has told, particularly in the world where we live, has told women that. And so, the courage that it takes to make a decision to choose something more, when women do that, I think there's just nothing more powerful, nothing.

I like representing men too, I especially like representing men who just really care about being good dads. But at the end of the day, the transformations, the ones that we talk about, that we are like, to your point, when you hear from them and they can't believe whatever's happening, maybe it's a new relationship or something happened in their career, their kids are just doing so well or there's not even anything specific, they're just happy, it's so rewarding to hear that, particularly from women.

Heather Quick:

Oh, thank you so much, Kristen. We have reached the end of our show and it's been such a pleasure to see you and have you as a guest on the show today.

Kristen Marcroft:

It has been my pleasure being here.

Heather Quick:

Well, thank you so much. And for all our listeners, you can find out more about Kristen and Freed Marcroft Law Firm at freedmarcroft.com and, in our show notes, we will have links to their site as well. Thank you so much.

Kristen Marcroft:

Thank you, Heather.

Heather Quick:

Thank you for joining me for this episode of Women Winning Divorce. If you or someone is looking for answers regarding divorce, reach out to us at floridawomen'slawgroup.com and also join the conversation on social at Women Winning Divorce. Women Winning Divorce is the place for an elevated conversation on how women can thrive during times of adversity in order to live their best life.