“The reality is this is who you are you create something out of nothing... the longer you stay bogged down in the stress of divorce it affects your ability to keep creating and innovating in your business.” – Vanessa Vasquez de Lara, Esq. “Women who are bread winners are high achievers in all areas including the home, you can do it all you just can’t do it all at the same time.” – Vanessa Vasquez de Lara In this week’s episode, Heather Quick, attorney & owner of Florida Women’s Law Group, is joined by the owner of Vasquez de Lara Law Group, Vanessa Vasquez to discuss divorce and the female breadwinner.
About Our Guest
Vanessa Vasquez de Lara, Esq. is the founder and owner of Vasquez de Lara Law Group, a law firm dedicated to assisting families with the legal issues affecting them and their loved ones in family court. Mrs. Vasquez de Lara graduated cum laude from the University of Miami School of Law in 2002. She has been named to the 2015 Super Lawyers Rising Stars and the 2016-2021 Super Lawyers list. She is an experienced family litigator who has been focused on family law for over 18 years.
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"Women Winning Divorce" is a radio show and podcast hosted by Heather Quick, CEO and Owner of Florida Women's Law Group. Each week we focus on different aspects of family law to help guide women through the difficult and emotional legal challenges they are facing. Heather brings over 20 years of law experience that advocates and empowers women to achieve happier and healthier lives. Join Heather each week as she discusses family law issues including divorce, custody, alimony, paternity, narcissism, mediation and more. This program was created to provide tips and insight to women with family law issues. It is not intended to be legal advice because every situation is different. Visit us at https://www.womenwinningdivorce.com/ for more resources. Text us at 904-944-6800 for a copy of Heather's Top 5 Divorce Tips. If you have questions or a topic you would like Heather to cover, email us at marketing@4womenlaw.com
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This program was created to provide tips and insight to women with family law issues. It is not intended to be legal advice because every situation is different.
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Heather Quick:
Welcome to Women Winning Divorce. I am your host, Heather Quick. I'm an attorney, entrepreneur, author and founder of Florida Women's Law Group, the only divorce firm for women, by women. I love thinking big, thinking outside the box, creating creative solutions for women and empowering women to win in all aspects of their life. In each episode of this show, I will discuss how to navigate the divorce process, come out stronger and empowered on the other side.
Welcome to Women Winning Divorce. Each week we discuss issues including divorce, custody, alimony, maternity, narcissism, mediation and other family law issues to provide insight on the journey of women winning divorce. I'm Heather Quick, owner and attorney at Florida Women's Law Group. Today we have the distinct pleasure being joined by Vanessa Vasquez Delara, which I'm sure my pronunciation is not nearly as good as hers, and the owner of Vasquez Delara Law Group in Miami. Welcome, Vanessa.
Vanessa Vasquez Delara:
Thank you so much, Heather. It's great to be here.
Heather Quick:
Well, we so appreciate it. For the listeners, Vanessa, it is really not that far away in Miami and we frequently refer clients back and forth because it is too far to travel from northeast Florida to Miami for court cases on most times. We've known each other for a while and fortunate to have her to refer women too, that are needing assistance in family law and located within her region. Vanessa's firm is dedicated to assisting families with legal issues affecting them and their loved ones in family court. Vanessa, I'd love if you could tell our listeners a little bit about how you got into family law and of course, most importantly why you stay there.
Vanessa Vasquez Delara:
Sure. I love being able to help people with their issues. I felt that in law school, I actually said that I wouldn't do criminal law or family law, so I kind of stumbled into family law. But once I got there, I realized that I could be really effective and that I really enjoyed being able to help people get out of their family legal issues in the best way possible. I do enjoy being able to take them from that beginning of the journey where they tend to be kind of lost and not know what's going to happen, being honest with them.
I do love to make sure that my clients understand the process and understand that just because they want something, doesn't mean they're going to get it. And then seeing them at the end in order to be able to ensure that they have arrived at wherever they want to arrive, whether that's a divorce, whether that's an equal time sharing schedule, whatever that might be, that they have arrived at the place that we expected them to arrive at.
Heather Quick:
And that's so important because most individuals, if they've never been in the system with family law or have experience, they really just don't know what they don't know. And they have, certainly coming into it, an expectation of what they want, which I find often is very different than the law. And those are hard conversations to have, right?
Vanessa Vasquez Delara:
Absolutely. I do think that that's one of the things that I love to tell my clients, you don't know what you don't know. That comes from people who sign agreements without talking to an attorney and then you have to tell them how crappy their agreement is to people who think that, "Well, he rarely did anything so I should get 100% custody. And you're like, "That's not a thing. That's not how this works, that's not how any of this works."
Heather Quick:
Yeah, it's so different and those are hard conversations but so important. Because like you said, its such a process in family law from the time when we first meet them, they first are at the firm towards the end, and through that is a lot of education and growth and hopefully for our clients to understand that this is how this process is going to impact you and the law, based on your facts. These are your options and they might not be the options you came in here wanting, but hopefully, they're still getting you really close to where you want to be, just within the confines of the law because that is what we have to deal with in family law.
Vanessa Vasquez Delara:
Yeah, I think it's so important to really let clients know what they can expect, because it's always going to be where they don't quite understand that the law is the law, but then the law is interpreted by a judge, it's interpreted by the opposing counsel, it's interpreted by the other person on the other side. And you really have to give them, "Well, here's the baseline, here's what I can tell you that you can expect, but that doesn't mean that a judge won't necessarily view that differently."
I get clients that will send emails and say, "Well, can't you see what he is doing?" And I'll be like, "Well, I could see it through your lens, but your judge who might be older, younger, a different sex, a different sexual orientation, may just not view this in the same exact way that you're viewing it." And that's really important. I think that not every family attorney does that, but the good ones like you and I will definitely do that.
Heather Quick:
I think that's such a great discussion that I know we both have with our clients, because I know we both hear stories and from my perspective it's from the women and they're telling me all of the reasons why the father and their husband should not have more time, maybe with their child. And then that's a hard conversation to say that, "I hear you and I know that upsets you." But through the lens of the court, they have seen the worst of the worst. And there may be some parts of your spouse's behavior and some things that they've done that would be relevant, but the court's goal ultimately is to have the children with both of the parents as much as possible and rehabilitate if there's substance abuse problems or issues and anger with the father or the mother.
But they're there to get the kids back with each parent. And so I know that that is what they need to hear. And sometimes there are facts that I say, "Okay, I think that will sway the court, we have to move in that direction." But clients need to know really where they stand in their options. And particularly about the judge you're in front of, which, a wonderful judge used to practice here, he's passed away. He used to say, "A good lawyer knows the law, a great lawyer knows the judge." And not to get extra treatment or anything, but they know what they're going to do so we can prepare our clients. Like, "This judge, this is what they're going to ask you, this is how they tend to rule. You've got to be prepared for that or we should settle out of court because you don't want to be in that situation."
Vanessa Vasquez Delara:
100%, I make that statement all the time to our clients because the reality is that, especially in Miami, we got so many people who dabble in family law and who don't know their judges. And you may be able to read the statute book, but if you don't know what typically happens and if you don't know that that judge likes to schedule things in this manner and that judge likes to hear this type of evidence, then you really are at a disadvantage and those clients are a disadvantage because they're not informed about, "Listen, that's great and all, but your judge is going to be very prospective looking and they're not going to be very retroactive looking."
So although to you it's really big deal that the father never went to a doctor's appointment, never went to an open house at the school, never did all these things, the judge is going to be looking at, "Well, now that you're separated, now dad needs to do those things and if he doesn't in the future, then..." And that's a hard thing sometimes for these moms to really understand because they've been handling 95% of the family load and they're thinking that dad can't handle it. But the court doesn't necessarily view it that way, they're just looking at it as, "Well, dad needs the opportunity to be able to do that."
Heather Quick:
Yes. And that is really hard for many women to see and accept. I would have certainly been right there with them. I'm a very unreasonable person and see things the way I want to see it, but that's not what the law is based on. So I get it, we understand. But also, and I think it really ties well into our topic today because when your identity is really tied into your children or who you are and what you do for the family, when that changes, it can be very difficult to think. Because it's just more than. I know you want to divorce him and he may or may not be a good father, great father, but I think it has more to do with their identity changing.
And they were talking about divorce and the female breadwinner, which, I really love this topic because I'm a business owner, you're a business owner and I represent women for years. And as much as men hate alimony, women are like, "You have not be kidding me that I am going to possibly have to pay alimony." And I'm hearing, I say the same thing, but we have, again, a written a law. And this is something that I think is a great thing to talk about because so many women are business owners, executives, and this keeps them from maybe making that decision, moving forward on a divorce, because their identity is not only in their professional life but we're going to talk about it, many times they do a lot home, too. And so then they really are just not seeing how that's going to play out.
Vanessa Vasquez Delara:
Yeah, it's definitely something that I agree with you, that when there is a lesser earning spouse, but not only a lesser earning male spouse but also when that spouse has been, for lack of a better word, not working or a lazy bum at the house and they've been trying so hard to do it all. Because women who are breadwinners tend to be really high achievers in every area. They tend to be high achievers at work or in business, they tend to be high achievers at home, that myth of doing it all. And when they have a partner that doesn't even contribute, not necessarily financially but just in the home, that they might not contribute in any good way, that becomes very difficult to really deal with that failure.
And I do think that sometimes that failure is allowed to drag on and on because it almost feels like they're sticking their heads in the sand. I can't be so high-achieving on this end and be so badly achieving at this relationship marriage thing, at this picking a husband thing. And the reality is that I think that sometimes they do last longer in those marriages because they don't feel like they can really handle being able to finish that and call it quits on that and move on.
Heather Quick:
Yeah. And I see and I was wondering if you've seen this, because I think when we look at what are the major issues, I think on one hand I've heard, at least in my experience from clients in the past, he tells them, "Well, I'm going to have the children, I will take the kids." Which as we know, I know you've heard that a lot, I hear it a lot. That just doesn't happen. That's like the archaic '60s, '70s probably. I mean, it was a little bit like that when I first started practicing law too many years ago now, 23 years ago. But nobody's buying it, it's just not like that anymore. No matter which side, there isn't only every other weekend and a dinner night. I know some people, it works for them, for the dad, but it just doesn't happen that often. Does it happen that often in Miami? Because it's not like that up here.
Vanessa Vasquez Delara:
Not at all. I mean, what I like to tell my clients is that time sharing is going to be determined on the best interest of the child, but the reality is that the trend, it's not the law, but the trend is equal and you really have to be able to demonstrate to the court why that should not be your case. While before it might have been having to demonstrate why equal is best, now it's almost like the pendulum has swung where you're trying to show why equal would not be best for the children because it has become very ingrained, at least still here in Miami-Dade and Broward, where equal kind of becomes something that is definitely not automatic, and I do think that our judges are still reviewing the factors. But that's kind of where the conversation starts, as opposed to where the conversation ends.
Heather Quick:
I agree and it's the same, again, knowing the judges, because within the various counties that we cover, it varies. It can be quite different from the standpoint of some judges, even really before there was more of a shift, all tended to be more pro dad. If a dad comes in and just says, "Oh, I want to do this," they think he superman and they're like whatever. And the poor woman is sitting there like, "Are you kidding me? He's never done anything." And it's true and that's just my point of view.
But I think also now, we do see that compared to 20 years ago, more husbands and fathers are involved more, because more women are working and they're like, "You can't really do it all." And some try, as you talked about. But they seem to be more interactive with the children. I think that women require that now more within, well, I'm older than you, but our generation in working with me, they're like, "Yeah, it's not just a one person show here."
Vanessa Vasquez Delara:
But I like to say that you can do it all, you just can't do it all at the same time. And I think before-
Heather Quick:
That's right. And then it breeds resentment, because if you do try to do it all, it wears you out. Something has to suffer and something has to give, and you get frustrated if your husband is not going to do his part in cleaning and the children and childcare or earning, that's when I think that's when we see them. They're like, "What is he doing here? It's like another child. I might as well get rid of him," and I would say so. And I think men don't know really, how to evolve in that. Some do and they're very successful and then we don't see them in our offices, the women and men. But I think that when we look at what even women who are the breadwinner and worker, they still carry a lot of the load at home and with the children.
Vanessa Vasquez Delara:
Agree. 100% agree.
Heather Quick:
And I think that's where we see often that women are, they get tired of that. They're like, "Hey, we had the kids, I did that. I went back to work, now I'm really being quite successful at work or in my business and what are you doing?" And I think that's the difference with women versus men, if they're the breadwinner and the woman is staying home, she just does everything and it's just different still, I think. A part of, "Hey, I've got everything with the school covered and all the kids and the house and entertaining." Men and women are different, it's very unlikely that stay at home dad can really fulfill that to the extent that a woman can, from my perspective.
Vanessa Vasquez Delara:
I mean, I would agree that the cases that we've had where the moms or the wives tend to be the breadwinners, that there's been a little bit of a shift and there have been some that are managing many of the things at home, but there's also the ones that aren't. And it's for whatever reason, the wife is not felt sufficiently able to walk away and be able to say, "I could do better by myself."
Heather Quick:
Well, it is. And I think that's what makes it really interesting because a lot of women's identity, it is with their children and as a mother. And so they feel like, "How do I both without support and how do we make that work?" But we're going to take a quick break and when we come back, I really want to talk about the financial aspect of the female breadwinner and really the different evaluations that come into play when we're talking about alimony, so we'll be right back.
We are back and talking today about women who are the breadwinner and then what happens with the divorce. I don't think I define it in the first segment, but we define, or I guess the research defines the female breadwinner or a breadwinner as earning more than 60% of the income. And so, that's what we're looking at here. I know that there are just some unique concerns for women who are really carrying the load of the financial responsibility for the family and then considering divorce, that are just different from men. Would you agree, Vanessa?
Vanessa Vasquez Delara:
100%. Like we were talking before the break, the reality is that women breadwinners tend to be their breadwinners, but they also tend to carry an oversized load at home. That's what I've seen and I don't know if that's what you've seen as well.
Heather Quick:
I have and then I think that's what leads them to our office, but yet, they still do have concerns. One of the biggest ones is alimony and I think that a good example is you're the runner because you're making more. Let's say you're the lawyer, the doctor, the business owner, and your husband maybe works part-time or let's say a school teacher, because there are a lot of men that do that. But yet, there's going to be a big disparity in the income. So they do work and they're able to work, it's just, they don't have that same earning potential at the time they come to us.
And I think that we talk about alimony, we look at that and it's a tough pill to swallow for anybody. I think more so for women in my opinion, but that's because I talk to more of them. I know men don't like it either. But one of the things that I frequently talk to clients about is that, well yes, you have the ability because you're earning more, but where is their need? And that's a big part of the evaluation in Florida law. Tell me a little bit about that conversation you have and some things that you look at.
Vanessa Vasquez Delara:
Yeah, absolutely. The conversation's always going to start at figuring out what's budget, what's everybody's ability to pay, what's everybody's need? And that's always the conversation, regardless of whether the woman is the breadwinner or is the stay-at-home mom, is trying to figure out what is the family's lifestyle in order to be able to calculate what the ability is. Because the reality is that 60% to 40% is not necessarily such a big difference. That once you're actually looking at separate homes and separate expenses and separate everything, alimony eventually doesn't necessarily come into play.
We see that a lot where these people were potentially living beyond their means when they were together, and definitely once they separate, they are probably still going to be living beyond their means, but it definitely means that there may simply not be an ability to be able to really support the other person. And now with our legislature continuously threatening us with alimony reform and changing what that looks like, that always now has to become a conversation topic with our clients about, "Well, this is where we are today, this may not be where we are tomorrow." But I find that besides the money and the alimony and the potential concerns with respect to that, looking at retirements, looking at pensions, looking at things that really are something that when you've had a long-term marriage, that you've accumulated quite a bit.
And it becomes a conversation of, "But he didn't help, he didn't contribute. I did this by myself." And the reality is that we have to have the same conversation with her, as we usually do with him, which is, "But you allowed this. You allowed them to go back to school for five years during your marriage. You allowed them to not get that better job. You allowed them or you asked for them to stay home because one of you had to be more available to their kids." And those decisions now have had to come into play when that calculation is being done about alimony or dividing all those assets.
Heather Quick:
Yes, I agree with you on the asset division, particularly the retirement. We've both heard that one. "That's mine, I worked for it." It's like, "I understand." But depending on the length of the marriage, many times these are why we're having the conversation because the marriage is longer in duration and so then there's more to discuss, more in a retirement, but it's marital. And that's a tough one to take, for sure. But from both sides, because when I'm talking of course, with the client who's the breadwinner, I let them know. We talk about it and part of that hard truth or just the reality is you're going to recoup it. Depending on where your age is and your level, you need to know you're going to recoup it because this is the most he's ever going to get.
And similarly on the flip side, when our client and I'm talking to them and the husband's retirement, he's like, "You got to get as much as you possibly can because you'll never be able to create that on your own if you don't have that level of income now and job." That's why that's so important, because especially for executives in their 40s, 50s, they're just going to recoup that.
It hurts, it does, but I always tell them, "It's going to hurt worse in another 10 years. So if you're in here 10 years from now, you're going to be mad at yourself and I'm not telling you to do it now or then, but just recognize the reality." And Florida's no fault, so just because you're like, "I'm not going to do that," that doesn't mean your spouse isn't going to decide they're tired of the relationship and maybe understand where they'll be financially after and say, "Hey, I want a divorce." So it's at least worth talking about and it is a tough discussion on those financials.
Vanessa Vasquez Delara:
I like to tell my clients, especially the business owners, that the reality is that this is who you are. You are somebody who creates out of nothing, who creates businesses, who creates income. And the reality is that the longer you're bogged down in the stress of the divorce, it affects your mental health, but it also affects your ability to keep creating, to keep innovating, to keep going in your business. And so even though it's painful, it's like ripping off the bandaid.
You really have to try to make sure that you are trying to resolve your case as quickly as possible because otherwise, you're not only spending money on the attorneys, you're not only spending money potentially on temporary support that may not necessarily help you in the long run because it's only during the case, but you're also affecting your businesses because you're not paying the attention that they need. And exactly like you said, you're going to build it back up. So if you can quickly resolve your divorce with maybe something more than what the other person wants, but you kind of cut and start over, that wasted time and wasted emotional energy that you're spending on your divorce could really be spent figuring out, "What's my next big idea? What's my next business thing? What's my next whatever?"
Heather Quick:
Exactly, because of the energy. And it's thinking in terms of it's very difficult to quantify your happiness and with money and again, you see that. But really at the end of the day, it's like, "Look, you are going to get your freedom. You're in a relationship that's not serving you or them and therefore, don't you think that it's worth it in the long run?" Of course, that's their decision. But it's such a good way to, like you said, really take a good look at how is this affecting you right now? And if you could stop it, think of how much more you can create, how much better you can be with your business and your patients if you're a doctor. Whatever it is you're doing, this is taking from you energy that you could be putting into something that would be more creative.
Vanessa Vasquez Delara:
Peace has a value, that's just the reality. That peace within your home, within your family, within your business, it has a value. And the quicker people realize that, I think that the better off their case will be, because the reality is that sort of falling into the trap of, "But they're not being reasonable and they're not doing this." And I like to tell my clients, you have to sometimes give the rope to the other side to hang themselves. You have to be generous and then kind of take it back if it doesn't work. But if you are constantly thinking, "They've never done anything, they're never going to do anything, the kids don't even like them."
Come on, let's get real, let's look at it from the perspective of what the court is probably going to do and try to get it resolved. And if you resolve it and it doesn't work, the courts allow us to go back in on modifications when things don't work. Obviously, that's not optimal and you want to assume that it will work out, but I tell my clients that all the time, that peace has a value. And sometimes that value is monetary and it's buying out that husband that unfortunately, they don't want to get a job when they're living off of you.
Heather Quick:
It's true. It's seeing that for what it is and then accepting. Because a lot of times in any type of divorce, there is just this regret, "Why didn't I do this earlier? I allowed this to go on." And that's true, but many times it wasn't painful enough and it's easier to ignore. That's just the reality. Sometimes those things are easier to focus on something else rather than deal with the personal part of it. And we talked a little bit about businesses and I think it's good for women breadwinners to know.
Yes, depending on the type of business there may be evaluation of that and that's nothing to be scared of, just really depends on what side you're looking at from the business. But the personal services business, the law firms or even the doctor's practice, dental practice, accounting firm, many times it's so reliant on you that that evaluation isn't going to produce as much as maybe the other side thinks that they might be entitled to, a piece of your business. That's just an example, but I know people get really concerned about that and we have to talk about it, for sure.
Vanessa Vasquez Delara:
Yeah, the reality is that just because something produces good income, doesn't mean that the business itself has a big value. Because yeah, you're right, there's a lot of businesses that are centered on the owner and without the owner, the value really isn't there. And the court isn't going to take your business, the court isn't in the business of taking successful businesses and then tearing them down in a divorce. They really are going to allow that business to flourish. But at the same time, you want to be honest with your attorney about what that business is paying for, what that business is doing, in order for us to be able to better protect you.
But it really is something that they do worry a lot about, business valuations and what that looks like and potentially what that would cause in the disruption to the business, et cetera. But the reality is that it's never as scary as what, unfortunately, our clients think it's going to be like. And that's something that, through good coaching and good advocacy from attorneys like you and I, we can definitely make sure that they come out on the other end in a better place.
Heather Quick:
Absolutely, I agree. Because it is, it's always scarier, the unknown in the scenarios that they'll play in their head before maybe actually talking to an attorney and understanding what that's going to look like. I want to talk a bit on the alimony a little bit again, because of the remarrying factor. Statistics show that men tend to remarry much faster than women, statistically. Not that I use that in negotiation because they may never remarry, but at least it's something to consider because obviously, you remarry or live with somebody, the alimony can be terminated. And I know that especially men who are pain alimony, boy, they get remarried so fast. My clients come back and tell us, "they're already remarried, didn't they learn anything?" But I don't know, what do you see, Vanessa?
Vanessa Vasquez Delara:
No, I agree that it is something that, it's surprising how quickly many of the guys remarry, but it's definitely something to consider when you're having that conversation, to be able to give them that hope for the future, hope that this is not going to be something that is going to be permanent. Even in long-term marriages, I am rarely seeing permanent alimony anymore. It's really something that we're either agreeing or the courts are entering much shorter length alimony, a duration that's maybe half the length of the marriage to the full length of the marriage. But the reality is that people do move on quickly and people do, especially the younger they are, I feel that they tend to pick up those new relationships a little quicker.
When the kids are younger, they tend to kind of move on. And that's a popular one in our office when the girlfriends are calling, as opposed to our male clients. And that becomes a little bit like what you said, "Did you not learn anything?" But it is something that we don't build in some sort of maximum alimony into our agreements, that's definitely something to give the clients hope. If they couldn't do this with you, they're probably not going to be able to do it without somebody. And so that's probably going to be something that allows for that hope of moving them off those payments sooner rather than later.
Heather Quick:
Agreed. And I think like you said earlier, with the right advice and advocacy from your attorney and then us really evaluating options, you don't necessarily have to agree to permanent. There's so many other ways to get there hopefully and settle it, rather than that long term forever idea of alimony. But when we return, we're ready for a small break and then we're going to talk about ways to prepare yourself and some things to think about for our women bread winners. Be right back.
Well, as we wrap up the show today, we've been talking with Vanessa Vasquez Delara, an attorney in Miami, on a great topic which is divorce when we have the women breadwinners, and some considerations for them that are different than men, at least from my perspective because we only represent women. But we're really just talking about ideas as we wrap up, some ways maybe women can protect themselves even though they're already married. I mean, we know a prenup is the best way to go before you get married, right?
Vanessa Vasquez Delara:
Best, best, best. Prenups or a postnuptial agreement is definitely the best protection.
Heather Quick:
And unfortunately, usually when they come to my office, they're like, "Yes, I know I should have gotten a prenup." Well, we're not there now, so let's talk about a postnuptial agreement. Because we've done our fair share of those throughout the years and I don't think most people really have ever heard of that or understand what that is, if you want to share with us, Vanessa?
Vanessa Vasquez Delara:
Yeah, absolutely. I think that a postnuptial agreement is a great tool, especially when the couple is having issues. And maybe they're thinking of trying counseling or trying other things, it's a way of leveling the playing field of trust, I find. And typically when we get people that come in that are talking to us about it versus us talking to them about it, it's because maybe there's been an affair or there's been a breach of trust, so this kind of helps everybody to feel, "Okay, I'm not going to get screwed." They're not just preparing to get a divorce, you're going to try to negotiate while everybody's still feeling like our marriage is worth working on, our marriage is something that we want to make sure that we can save.
And having that postnuptial agreement is so similar to a prenup where you're basically sharing with each other exactly the financials, if for whatever reason haven't been shared during the marriage. But then making those agreements as to what's going to happen with your assets, with your debts, with your alimony. And all of that is something that can really put everybody on, what I like to say, a very comfortable playing field because now, while you are getting along, while you still love each other, while everything is trying to be headed in a positive direction, you are coming to that agreement, as opposed to once the divorce litigation starts, nobody's on the same team. It becomes who can get a bigger piece of the pie, as opposed to what's a fair way to split up the pie.
Heather Quick:
I agree. And because like you said, I see it definitely when there's been a breach of trust. Because I've talked with many women and they'll bring it up and I'm like, "Well, what's in it for him? Why is he going to sign it?" And then they're like, "Oh yeah, I don't know if he will." Right, there has be a reason. I say, "We can draft it, but you have to have that conversation." They have to be motivated as well to be working on the marriage and working and saying, "Hey, let's remove what could be in the event of a divorce, agree to that, show that we're willing to work on the marriage and then hopefully put that away in a drawer and then focus on that." But then you don't feel as though you're really getting taken advantage of by working on the marriage and still at risk for what's going to happen with the assets, the debts, and usually mostly alimony, because that tends to be the most variable in the marriage.
And I really think that obviously, people who don't have the willingness or ability to look at a prenup, when the facts present themselves for a post-nup when your situation does, you really have an opportunity to script out your divorce, which I don't think is really that terrible a thing because it's basically your financial future at that point. Because just for our listeners, we can't put in a post-nup, who's going to have the children and all those things because that's within the court's purview. You can't negotiate that out of a post-nup, but what you can do is really say, "Let's agree what this would look like financially for us, rather than relying on the courts and the law of your state here in Florida."
That's where I think people miss that understanding that you have the ability within the confines, as we know, is what we can and can't put in a prenup or post-nup. But you can direct that versus being subject to the laws of Florida or wherever you happen to be at the time of the divorce. And that's what leaves people like concerned. It's just like you said, I think it's been going on over 10 years now, but boy, it gets ramped up on the alimony thing when it does in Florida and that law changes. And that's going to affect a lot of people and some positively, some negatively. So when you have a prenup or post-up, you have the ability to take your specific situation and determine where that's going to be.
Vanessa Vasquez Delara:
Yeah, we've had very large business owners that are trying to make sure that everybody's on the same page, to people who are like, "Well, I'm going to sign it no matter what." And I'm like, "Okay, but let me educate you. Let me make sure that you understand." And unfortunately, in our practice it's still a lot more common to get the women being the lesser owners, coming in with those prenups or post-nups. I know that they're probably going to sign it anyways, but what I try to do is make sure, "Listen, think of me almost like your older sister, giving you this advice that you want to be thinking of in the future. If you decide to have children and stay home, guess what? Your retirement's no longer growing, your income base is no longer growing and that might be a time to renegotiate your agreement."
I try to give them the advice of making sure that they're at least thinking about some of the issues, because there's seen issues where it's not even a divorce that causes the problem, but it does. And somebody who may not realize that they've given up all of their inheritance rights in a prenup or a post-nup, and all of a sudden the person dies and there wasn't any trouble in the marriage, but now they're about to be homeless in 30 to 60 days because that property maybe belonged to their partner.
That's really something that I try to encourage our clients to be cognizant of what they're doing, to make sure that they understand that they're giving some things up and that they need to make sure that at some points, they may need to reevaluate that or simply be able to renegotiate and come back to the table and say, "Dear wife or dear husband, I think that this was great when we got married, but at this point we've created something that I feel needs to be addressed," and have those renegotiations.
Heather Quick:
Yeah, I completely agree with you because so much can happen, certainly through marriage. And I think we see more often, certainly if it's somebody's second marriage or a little later in life and they both have children, it really makes a lot of sense to do a prenup. But certainly, as we've both seen the ones that are still one-sided, you don't have to give up everything and it should be equal. At least not where, "Hey, I keep all my stuff, you get nothing." And the sad thing is you could be married 20 years and then now something's going on and you really are like, "Oh my gosh, I didn't expect that to happen."
But I think it's really important for when you have children from a prior marriage and you've worked and you've got certain things and that's important to you. I've heard people say, "Oh, well, we are just going to go do our wills." And they don't understand that you can change that. You sign a prenup, you sign a post-nup, that is a contract between the two of you. Your husband or you can go change your will anytime you want. And that now, of course, there's some protection for the spouse in Florida, but again, they're not really thinking because they don't know. You don't understand that it's not the same.
Vanessa Vasquez Delara:
You don't know what you don't know. And that's what we try, whether they keep it in mind or not, I like to think that they do, but you really don't know that if you are giving up your inheritance, if you're agreeing that he doesn't have to even have life insurance to take care of you, if you're agreeing to all of these things, that sometimes it's not even a purposeful decision that causes the problem, but sometimes it's unfortunately an unintended situation where somebody may pass away.
Heather Quick:
And that's so sad, once again, for both of us who have built businesses around helping people. It's the worst to me when somebody comes in, it's like, "We really can't help you. You got yourself in a situation that legally, there isn't that way around it. We can't change that for you just because you didn't know at the time and you really were just naive or didn't think that it would be worth it for you to go educate yourself on what you were signing or what those implications would be."
Vanessa Vasquez Delara:
For sure.
Heather Quick:
And I think sometimes people do do that anyway, even when we do tell them. And that's like, "Hey, at least you know." And then now, don't be crying later that, "Oh, I had no idea." You did know and you just made that choice. Doesn't make that feel any better when it ends badly, but-
Vanessa Vasquez Delara:
I had a case many, many years ago when I worked at a firm, where it was a doctor and he got divorced. And then he came back, "Oh, I need a second divorce." And we're like, "But you got cleaned out the first time you didn't do a prenup?" And then he came back a third time with no prenup. And so, we definitely do with our clients and you know your clients, which ones are a little bit more, you build that more personal relationship. But I've been known to tell clients, "I better see you in here for a prenup before you get married again." So it is something that surprisingly, it's still not as common as I would think that they are, although we are seeing a lot more of them, so I think maybe people are getting the message.
Heather Quick:
It's going to save you so much time and energy and money down the road. And I guess people just don't know. Well, if we enter in the marriage with nothing and we're young, it's hard for people to really understand and I do understand that. But we can put in contingencies, like you said. Yeah, you're both young, you're both working, but it's really when one person stays home and it tends to be women more often, or at least they say they leave the workforce for a period of time because they are the ones that have to have the children. That impacts it and when you think about that, it's worthwhile to think about, "How will that look on the other side?" Because of course at the time of divorce, all those agreements that you guys made back in the day go out in the door and now the law applies and it-
Vanessa Vasquez Delara:
Especially with women business owners, the reality is that a lot of their spouses end up coming into the business. So when you have an agreement that is able to take that into consideration, then that can really make almost, it should be business continuity, business continuity planning. Or if we were to get a divorce, what is my spouse going to do? Because you're not going to want them in your business. And that's hard I think sometimes for business owners to think about and to plan for that potential future. But it's certainly something that it should be considered by business owners and especially women business owners.
Heather Quick:
Agreed, because then they feel trapped. You can absolutely feel trapped if they're in here and they do a lot. And I would hope if they're working in the business, they're helping you with it, know so much about it and that makes you fearful. Is this business not going to survive a divorce? And you certainly don't want that to happen at all, but it's definitely, I think a real concern and something that you can't prevent, but you can set things up so well that you can protect the business to continue running. Because if it provides income to both of you, really, that's what everybody wants and then move. Before we go, Vanessa, I always ask my guest this question. And I'd like to know for our listeners, if you can impart to them anything you've learned about divorce and representing women throughout your career?
Vanessa Vasquez Delara:
Really what I'd love to tell my women clients is don't self sacrifice. Don't make it to the extent where you are sacrificing yourself for your spouse, your husband or for your children. Because the reality is that if you end up getting a divorce, you've now sacrificed yourself almost to death. And I see that so often, especially in litigation where the women are quick to give up money, they're quick to give up many things in order to be able to get what they're looking for with the kids, but they almost don't think it through.
And I'm like, "I want to make sure that you don't come back to me in a year telling me how financially strapped you are because you gave up the things you were entitled to because you wanted to, or you felt that you could do a better job with the kids." Kids are resilient and they're in this situation regardless, so you really have to make sure that you are making sure that you're making yourself a priority before, during the divorce and definitely afterwards.
Heather Quick:
I appreciate that so much because that is one of the things I have found, and certainly when we began, we transitioned the practice to represent women only, is that they just undervalue themselves, what they bring to the table. And they are quicker to set a lead when they're so close to the end, it's worth it if they feel that they have the strength to stand up for what they are entitled to and for what they're really going to need in their future, versus that short term thinking. I really appreciate that and we've reached the end of our show, but Vanessa, thank you again so much for being with us today and sharing your experience and knowledge with our listeners.
Vanessa Vasquez Delara:
Thank you so much for having me.
Heather Quick:
Absolutely. And for our guests, you can find out more about Vanessa in the show notes, but also at familylawprotection.com. And we will have all of those links available for you so that if you are in the Miami-Dade, Broward area and need assistance with your family law issue, please reach out to Vanessa. Or if you're trying to reach her, reach out to us and we'll make sure that we connect.
Vanessa Vasquez Delara:
Thanks, Heather.
Heather Quick:
Thank you so much, Vanessa. Thank you for joining me for this episode of Women Winning Divorce. If you or someone you know is looking for answers regarding divorce, reach out to us at floridawomenslawgroup.com, and also join the conversation on social at Women Winning Divorce. Women Winning Divorce is the place for an elevated conversation on how women can thrive during times of adversity in order to live their best life.
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