“Divorce can make you bitter or divorce can make you better. You get to choose.” – Hannah Hembree Bell, Esq. In this week’s episode, Heather Quick, attorney and owner of Florida Women’s Law Group, and Hannah Hembree Bell, Founder & Managing Attorney of Hembree Bell Law Firm in Austin, Texas, discuss contempt & divorce orders. Learn what contempt of court & enforcement of order are, how to file, and ramifications if not followed.
About Our Guest
Hannah Bell is the founding attorney of Hembree Bell Law Firm in Austin, Texas, where she focuses her practice on family law, divorce, and estate planning. Hannah is dedicated to helping people navigate tough family matters with genuine care and compassion. In her daily practice, she strives to be the lawyer she wishes she’d had during her own divorce and custody case.
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Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HembreeBellLaw/
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"Women Winning Divorce" is a radio show and podcast hosted by Heather Quick, CEO and Owner of Florida Women's Law Group. Each week we focus on different aspects of family law to help guide women through the difficult and emotional legal challenges they are facing. Heather brings over 20 years of law experience that advocates and empowers women to achieve happier and healthier lives. Join Heather each week as she discusses family law issues including divorce, custody, alimony, paternity, narcissism, mediation and more. This program was created to provide tips and insight to women with family law issues. It is not intended to be legal advice because every situation is different. Visit us at https://www.womenwinningdivorce.com/ for more resources. Text us at 904-944-6800 for a copy of Heather's Top 5 Divorce Tips. If you have questions or a topic you would like Heather to cover, email us at marketing@4womenlaw.com
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This program was created to provide tips and insight to women with family law issues. It is not intended to be legal advice because every situation is different.
Heather:
Welcome to Women Winning Divorce. I am your host, Heather Quick. I'm an attorney, entrepreneur, author, and founder of Florida Women's Law Group, the only divorce firm for women by women. I love thinking big, thinking outside the box, creating creative solutions for women and empowering women to win in all aspects of their life. In each episode of this show, I will discuss how to navigate the divorce process, come out stronger and empowered on the other side.
Welcome to Women Winning Divorce. I'm Heather Quick, owner and attorney of Florida Women's Law Group. Today I'm being joined by Hannah Hembree Bell, founder and managing attorney of Hembree Bell Law Firm at Austin, Texas. Welcome to the show, Hannah.
Hannah:
Hey there. Thanks, Heather. Thanks for having me.
Heather:
Absolutely. I am so excited to have you. It's just really entertaining for me and informative to learn from all of these amazing attorneys across the country, because our states are so different and everybody's got a unique background that brings them to family law, which of course is part of what I would love to talk to you about in the beginning, so our listeners can understand a little bit more about you, because, from what I understand, you did not really start out in family law. You started out more in a big law firm doing employment law.
Hannah:
Yeah, that's right. I went to St. Mary's University in San Antonio, Texas for law school, and I ended up doing pretty good in school. I was surprised, I had three kids in tow already, so I thought I was just going to skate barely by, but I ended up doing pretty good. I had the opportunity to do the big summer clerkships at a couple firms, and went with the local, regional big firm that merged with an AmLaw 200 and did employment law first. Then, as that was happening, I got divorced and then was in the middle of my first custody modification. So, I got to family law sort of through the back door. I don't know if you recall that, but practically, instead of, I didn't make that choice right out of school.
Heather:
But now it has an impact on you clearly that you have your own law firm and you focus on divorce and family law. Is that correct?
Hannah:
Yeah. I do some estate planning, too, which really flowed out of helping families in marriage as well navigate custody issues and then some estate planning help blended families and things like that. But yeah, I focus on that journey. I mean, I used to use the word battle. I'm trying not to talk about it in terms of adversarial battle language, although sometimes that's certainly how it feels. I really try to take a more, I don't know if positive is the word, but more holistic, centered approach as much as I can to help families navigate the end of a marriage. I saw this, a friend of mine follows a Cup of Jo, this blog. Have you ever heard of that?
Heather:
I have. I haven't listened or read it though.
Hannah:
Yeah, it's interesting. She made this really beautiful announcement about the end of her marriage, which I thought was a poignant way to talk about it. And just because something is now complete does not necessarily mean it wasn't a success. Just success does not necessarily mean forever. Anyway, embracing a little bit more of that approach, because at least, at first, when I started, and I think for a lot of people when they think of divorce and custody, they think of this huge war. I know, Heather, I'm sure you agree with this, families do better when they can craft unique deals, unique agreements that fit their family's unique needs versus going to the courthouse and having a knock-down-drag-out. That's certainly our approach. We fight hard but smart. We have to go to court sometimes, that's just part of it, but we try to help families build their own futures.
Heather:
Yeah, you got into family law based on personal experience, but you stayed there, but, I mean, you created a whole practice. There must be a reason for that, that something called you to this practice rather than put away your personal experience and then just continue focusing on a different area as well.
Hannah:
Yeah. Well, the way I look at it, when I was getting divorced and then in my first custody modification, I think of it like I was traveling through dense, deep, dark woods, the kinds that are in Little Red Riding Hood or something. That's the visual I have in my mind. I didn't know where to go. I didn't know what each new sound meant. I didn't know who to trust. I didn't know the path.
I finally made it to the other side of those deep, dark, dense woods, and I'm not the sort of person who then takes off for the clearing. I turned around and cleared a path behind me so that other people didn't have to get lost in those same woods. I mean, it's a must for me. We have those things inside, what we should do and what we must do. There's this incredible book I always tell people about called The Crossroads Between Should and Must. Should are things that are put on us, on top of us, and what should we do and how should we meet others' expectations? How should we live up to what they think for us? Versus must is more the thing from inside out, that living out.
Especially, after I went through my whole process, it became a must for me to help other women and good guys navigate that process and go through those woods. I think the main thing that I do that, I mean, I guess, sets me apart and has enabled me to have this success that I've had is connecting with the person practically. I think so many lawyers love to spit out big old words, jurisdiction and la la la, whatever, and somehow they feel better about themselves because they're talking over people.
I don't do that. I think, I always tell people, "You come to me with practical problems that may or may not have legal solutions." Most often clients will come and they're wanting to know the legal answer to something. I'm like, "Look, the legal answer is if they don't do what you... Okay, either you agree or you go to court." That's, at the end of the day, the legal answer.
Usually, there's something in between that and trying to practically navigate, "What do I say in this email? How do I respond on Fridays if they didn't show up for pickup? What do I do if my kids start struggling in schools and grades start to go down?" That's the way I think of it. The legal part, it's just a tool in the toolbox really of how we navigate this new family structure and dynamic and then the changing dynamic over the years, because it doesn't stay the same. Kids get older, people get remarried, people get divorced again another time, mental health, money, all of that comes into place. That's the way I think of it is really trying to keep rooted in a practical approach that meets people where they are, because I think that's the help that they really need.
Heather:
Or sometimes the route picks you, so then you just got to follow through, and you have to do what you have to do. But what we've been doing on the show this year is talking with women owners of their law firm that focus on family law. Because we represent women only here in Florida, we have a perspective, I have certainly a perspective and point of view in regards to law and different issues, but it's so helpful to, one, get other points of view from other women business owners on these topics and just compare and contrast the differences with your law firm and our law firm and the states. Because I think that's really fascinating, one, for me, but also for many of our listeners, because we live in such a mobile society now. Very often, I've had plenty of people who were in Texas and came to Florida, in Florida, maybe going to Texas, and sometimes they really need to understand what the law is in both places. Yeah.
Hannah:
Yeah, Florida, Texas and California, it seems like the people who live in one of those states, our other options are to relocate to one of those three. So, we deal with hearing a lot about California and Florida here also. Yeah, I think that makes sense.
Heather:
Well, good. Well, today our topic is contempt, contempt of court and enforcement of orders. Now, of course, in a perfect world, after the couple divorces, everybody follows the orders and does everything they're supposed to, right? I'm sure you see 100% compliance [inaudible 00:08:32], Hannah?
Hannah:
Yes. Right. Ideally. Yeah. I mean, I think that the thing is, for lawyers, we are probably a little more cynical than this, because the ones that go fine and well, we don't hear from. The ones we hear from are where there's some sort of a drama, right?
Heather:
Indeed. Indeed. Well, and not everybody does what they're supposed to. Sometimes because they just don't want to and sometimes because it's not quite that easy, the circumstances intervene. Or also sometimes it's someone's point of view, they're like, "Well, I think I have complied." The other spouse thinks they haven't or ex-spouse. That is some of what we're going to talk about today and wanted to start with the difference, just for our listeners, between contempt and enforcing an order. Obviously, everybody knows they'll call our office, say, "Hey, they're not doing what we agreed," right?
Hannah:
Mm-hmm.
Heather:
That one party isn't following what we agreed to in our order. But that's not always contempt, because sometimes it's more of an enforcement sort of property issue, it gets a lot more complicated. I didn't know if... I figure it's probably a similar matter where you have issues that are clearly contempt of court and that people come to you with, your firm, versus trying to enforce other parties.
Hannah:
Well, I think the way you're talking about it is different than the way we talk about it. I think we have to back up there. In Texas, if you have a post divorce or post-custody, do you handle custody only, too, or just divorces, Heather?
Heather:
Ours are all, we do both, because it's all one proceeding. Everything is one proceeding, whether it's just a divorce, but it's divorce property, children, everything is one thing.
Hannah:
Okay. So, what I mean is, we'll have a divorce situation, and we'll have a strictly custody situation like unmarried persons having children versus a divorce and then subsequent modifications, we call it. What happens is you're going to have one of two things. You're going to have either a divorce decree or some sort of a custody order, where in a divorce decree you would have both property and children-related issues. You'd have two potential pieces in this divorce decree version, stuff and kids. With stuff I mean money. With kids, also couldn't mean money. Then, on the other hand, you can have a straight custody order, where unmarried persons have a child.
Heather:
That's paternity, right. Yes, we handle that, but at the end of the day, if you don't comply with it either or, you're in contempt or you [inaudible 00:11:13].
Hannah:
Yeah.
Heather:
You're saying you don't deal with it that way? I mean-
Hannah:
No, we do, we have two different types of orders. Both of these orders, and then the action is called a motion for enforcement. In either instance, you would file a motion for enforcement. So, you've got one of these two underlying orders and, let's just say, it's a divorce one, and say we're going to... Well, it's a little bit cleaner when it's just custody. Let's do custody. It's just going to be custody. You're going to say, "Hey, court, here's this motion for enforcement. Here are the seven provisions that they were supposed to adhere to and here's provision number one, here's all the times they violated it, provision number two, all the times they violated it." You put all of that in your motion. Then, when you ask the court, well, and so you're like, "Okay, court, I want you to do X, Y, Z." That's where you would include the contempt as the remedy, holding them in contempt, which may or may not involve jail time, money, things like that.
That's the remedy for the violations. But you still have to file the motion, explain very, very specifically and technically what they did or didn't do. Then ask the court to give a remedy. You're going to file that motion to enforce and go say, "Hey, court, I need some help. This person hasn't paid money. Please make them." Then you can ask them to do certain things to make that possible.
Heather:
So, that's not something I guess you're saying that would be a number one thing for you to do, you might send them out.
Hannah:
Well, I mean, it just... Every person, I would talk to them and figure out the deal. Because it's going to cost a decent bit of money to file a motion for enforcement. Just because you have filing fees, you have the attorney's fees, you're going to have some sort of a hearing, you're going to have to deal with maybe opposing counsel. So, if we're just two months, are we real sure? I mean, maybe let's just say their child support's $1,000, $2,000, it's going to cost you more than $2,000 to enforce that. That's my practical approach. I would say, "Hey, is there some other way to get this person to pay?" Or go to the attorney general and get it started without spending a bunch of money, because you have to do this math at some point of when is it worth it to file to enforce, when we're talking about money? To some extent, it is a math problem of what makes sense. You got to give a five, $10,000 retainer to an attorney and you're only owed two. Well, that dog don't hunt yet.
Heather:
Well, unless this is a continual problem and you're ready to stand up for an order in a court order, how does the court handle that? Are they indifferent to folks who don't follow their court orders? I'm just curious, because in Florida, most of our judges, they will absolutely take seriously when you don't follow these orders. Sometimes, a point needs to be made for an individual doesn't follow court orders. That's why I'm asking, because it doesn't seem like... I know we talked about a little bit this beforehand, that your firm doesn't handle a lot of these, so that's a fair statement. But I do think so many people are in these positions and they're like, "Well, that's their whole point, until I file something, they won't do it." It's powerful.
Hannah:
Well, that's where you have to get practical. Okay, rights are only as good as they're enforced or followed. I always say laws and rules are for law and rule abiding people. People are going to follow, court orders are going to do it. Then there's some of those people who are just, "Forget the court order, I don't care, come and make me."
Heather:
How does Texas, how do your judges, in your jurisdiction, how do they deal with that? Is that something that's worth it? Is it not worth it? Because the judges are going to just give them a tap on the wrist, not help reimburse you for your attorney's fees, and just say, you know?
Hannah:
Well, listen. What I'm trying to... We do handle a decent bit of these, it's just not our primary practice area. Because I think a lot of times they help them think through it practically. It's hard to make a blanket statement, it depends on which county and our county's Travis County and Bexar, which is where San Antonio and Austin are, we're on a rotating docket. So, you get a different judge every time you go. It's hard to know what any particular judge will do, versus Williamson County, where we also go, which is Round Rock, North of Austin, you get your same judge so you have a better feel.
But generally speaking, you go in on your motion to enforce and, look, there are often... I don't ever believe in doing anything for the principle of the matter, don't waste your money on legal things for principles. It's not worth it to me. But sometimes what you have to do is they're never going to comply with this other person, if they're that personality, until you enforce it.
Well, that's different. We have to assess. Say, we're going to do that of like, "Hey, if you don't follow this order, I'm going to be at court enforcing it on you." Now, in my experience, it kind of depends on the person, the egregiousness of the violations, how long it's been going, et cetera, as to what they'll do. In Texas, what they'll do, often, if it's two months of child support, more often than not, before you walk into that courthouse, you're going to get made whole on your two months. It's not going to be worth it to this litigant to walk in there, that the baby daddy or mom is probably going to pay you before you walk in to the courthouse, because of what could be waiting on them.
So, I think it makes more sense to think about somebody who hasn't paid for a year, let's say, a long period of time. Well, now we're talking. You'll go in there and you have to put on a case of very, very specific, and there's a lot of technicalities to get it done. Then, in Texas, the court shall order attorney's fees. So, you should get a court order saying you're going to get your attorney's fees paid back. One of the things that I've seen courts do quite a bit here is a community supervision or suspension situation, where what they'll do is say, "Okay, you're in contempt. You didn't pay all this money for all this time, but we're going to put you under a probation situation. And you have to pay back this amount of money over this amount of time and jump through all these hoops, and if you don't, then they can come revoke that probationary suspension thing and get you sent to jail."
It's like a way of putting in a warning with a hammer is the way I think about that one. I think that's a pretty good result, because you go in, maybe you don't want this person straight to jail, because if they're in jail, they're not paying you any more child support, probably. So, it allows that person to avoid jail through contempt, which is what contempts can lead to, can lead to jail, and puts them on notice like, "Hey, you better pay $500 a month to get caught up in addition to paying your obligation. If you don't, then this can get revoked and you will be going to jail the next time I see you."
Heather:
Now, do you see that, do you think that is... Well, is that generally reserved for just child support or alimony as well? Or maybe you don't have that many spousal-
Hannah:
Yeah, spousal maintenance is what we call it, not alimony. I mean, the things I'm talking about, I've seen in the child support context. Now, as far as obligations on spousal maintenance, I have not had one go to an enforcement on the spousal maintenance, because we try to secure it somehow, usually, some sort of maintenance payment, a certain account, or something like that. Generally speaking, I just haven't really run into that, I'm trying to think, with spousal maintenance. It happens more so when you're not talking child support. But what if the people didn't do the thing they're supposed to do with property?
Heather:
That will get to next, because that is completely different the way that's handled in Florida. But I was just curious, because that's an issue that I've certainly, we've certainly been dealt with the spousal support alimony here and failure to pay, late paying. I think I really appreciate your perspective, because the question becomes, when is the right time? But many women left a relationship due to maybe wanting to escape some control issues. Well, now, you are relying on your ex-husband for financial support and, then again, that's the only control they've got over you is the money. So, it's a slow pay, it's a late pay. There's always the question, when is the right time? When do we have enough things that makes sense to go forth with court to get this done in the way that it ought to be paid either automatically or-
Hannah:
It's a hard call, Heather, because a lot of times you get unsatisfactory results in these situations. It's frustrating, that's the thing I try to be real honest with my... I mean, believe me, any of my clients who are dealing with one of these stinker exes, guys or girls, some women do this, too. I'll say, "Look, we have to figure out when it's worth it to pull that trigger and spend the fees." And if you know habitually the person you're with is one of those who... The worst case is they slow pay [inaudible 00:19:57] and then they make good, that's the most difficult to deal with, because you file your motion for enforcement, you spend all these fees, it's a more, in Texas, more specific, detailed, carefully crafted with a lot of stuff, technical stuff in it than most of our other motions in family law, this one's like, because you're dealing with contempt, so it has to be, it's like potential imposition on a person's liberty like jail. So, you have to have more-
Heather:
Which we'll get into that a little bit more, because I think that's valid, Hannah, and I really want to talk about that after the break, just so that our listeners understand, sometimes, I mean, you can get a contempt [inaudible 00:20:34] has to be done the right way. So, let's take a quick break and we'll come back to that. Because I think it's really important, like you said, how contempt has to be varied. So, we'll be right back.
Thank you for joining us again. Hannah and I were discussing really a lot of the differences between Texas and Florida when it comes to enforcement and contempt, meaning what do you do when your ex isn't following the court orders? It seems, I think, to most of our listeners and any lay person, well, if they don't do it, go to the judge and have them tell them to do it.
But unfortunately it's not quite that clear, even though that can be the result, sometimes it takes some time and a little bit more complicated than that. But before the break, Hannah was getting into a little bit more depth about contempt, and I don't want to go too deep into it, but I do want to talk a little bit about it, because I've certainly had cases where we had someone put in jail for not paying. But those are a few and far between, because it requires a lot of, not only detail, but the facts have to match up. I mean, I will tell you, I think the judges give them an awful lot of opportunity to comply before that as a drastic measure. Would you agree with that, Hannah?
Hannah:
Yeah, absolutely. I think that you got to carefully consider when you're going to go into that courthouse and make that investment in your time, energy, resources, the relationship with this person. More often than not, it's not the right move to make until a lot more accrue. So, it's a careful decision you really need to make with the lawyer.
Heather:
Yes. A little bit about what you were talking about the detail, and this is just good for listeners, just so that you know, because if this is going on and you're like, "Well, what do I do?" We're going to have to put detail in it and there has to be very specific noted, because if jail is a potential penalty, obviously then that does infer and imply your due process rights. So, a lot has to happen, and usually they're going to at least get an opportunity hear before the judge, so the judge can specifically tell them, "You must pay this in 10 days. If you do not, this is what will happen," at least in Florida. That's a very simplified way of breaking it down. But in order for jail to be a remedy for you or it's really a penalty to induce someone to pay.
I have found that those and, of course, we represent women, but there's men who say, "Well, I'll go to jail first before I pay you that alimony or child support," pay pretty expensive once they find themselves in jail. Yeah, now, of course, they have to have the ability to pay. But usually it doesn't take more than one time for them to realize they would rather abide by a court order than go to jail.
Hannah:
Yeah, of course.
Heather:
With that being said though, I know you haven't handled a lot of the contempt with the alimony issues, but I mean eventually with child support and not paying it, I mean, is jail one of the ramifications?
Hannah:
That's why they have that there. I mean, I think the state of Texas takes very seriously getting support to the custodial parent. They take that seriously. So, you can get contempt as an option and the other person can have to go to jail. But what I hear more often than anything else from people who pursue this legally is how frustrated they get with how many chances the mom or dad got to make it right. Then, they don't ever make it right. That's why to me the best outcome at that first hearing is that suspension of commitment, where if you don't do these things, then you're going to go to jail. They know the way to stay out, it gives them a chance, and then if not, you're going. Absolutely, I had one guy, where it was very specific what he had to do and as I stood there I thought, "I really don't think this guy was going to do with that." He didn't, and he went to jail.
Heather:
Well, I think one of the most frustrating things for any divorce person is spent a lot of time and money going through the divorce, having an agreement with specific requirements of either party. Then, after all that, you have somebody who does not follow that. Now, a lot of times with obviously our clients [inaudible 00:25:58] they know, so they're just know telling, they're probably not going to do this or they might, they have a lot more history with them. I think that can help us as attorneys in drafting agreements, consent agreements, which we do often and we are required to go to mediation in all divorcing and any family law action, you have to attend mediation prior to being able to have trial. I don't know if that is the case in Texas. Is it, Hannah?
Hannah:
It depends on the county. It's not a state law.
Heather:
Okay. Ours is a state law. Mediation is mandated.
Hannah:
Most of the them, if there are kids involved, we'll make you. In most of them, if one of the parties request, so we'll do a motion to refer to mediation. If one of the parties request, the judge is going to sign it. Normally, if one party wants to go, then you can make it happen.
Heather:
Yes. I think that it's a great time, like you said, to get creative, but one of those things being, knowing if you may... Your spouse, maybe not, maybe somebody who's not going to be reliable, not going to, "Hey, I think it's really helpful to share that with your attorney that maybe there's some creative things we can put in our final judgment, our parenting plan," it helps you out a little bit, it's not always-
Hannah:
Yeah, I love it. If you think this person is the sort of person who's going to game the system, who's never going to show up with their check on time, whatever that looks like, then perhaps you can secure it. Meaning, you could say, "Oh, child support to be paid from this account..." Or somehow have a way to satisfy the obligation, perhaps. Definitely with spousal maintenance, sometimes that'll happen.
But it's maddening and frustrating to try, especially on child support, because the bottom line is they can really jerk you around quite a bit and get away with it. That's the facts. The way if that starts happening to you, you would call somebody like Heather or our office for sure, if it's in Texas, and get on top of it quickly. Especially, if you keep coming in on that enforcement and that judge keeps seeing that person, then the swiftness with which they might see themselves in a remedy once the judge gets to know the situation is a little bit different. But it just takes time, money, and energy to get there.
Heather:
It does. But that, in many times, I think, Hannah, that is really good advice, because they know they're in this situation, depend on the age of the kids, they see how it's going to be for a while. Often, it's important, at some point, depending, really, most importantly, what their long-term goals are, it's, okay, well, start making a record in the court system now as lengthy, costly as that may be, it is your best way. Don't come to court, say, for three years they haven't done all of these things and expect as harsh of a treatment as if you were really on top of it along the way.
But again, that takes a lot of time and energy. But many times, at least I have seen, particularly with, yes, with payment, but also with the time-sharing. Now, that is what Florida has called, seems, to be custody. We call it time-sharing, and usually there's one parent that has the majority of the time and the other has the minority of the time. That can vary. But we have a parenting plan. What I think, and I'd love to hear your perspective, if you have had this experience, where clients are frustrated because their ex is not following what's been ordered on that custody agreement, on the time-sharing, in the schedule. Have you had those issues?
Hannah:
Oh, yeah. I mean, the first thing I'd say is at least what we say about in Texas all the time is the obligations under a parenting plan, whatever the plan is, court ordered or agreed, those are rights, not obligations, when it comes to visits. Meaning sometimes people get frustrated, they're supposed to have them the first, third, fifth weekend and they never come, and then they just show up. That's really maddening and really sucks and is also very possible. The court's not going to force children on a parent who doesn't want to spend that time with them. That's one question that's pretty easily cut off at the pass, "Hey, he's not picking him up when he's supposed to for the weekend and I've got the kids and I had plan." The court's not going to do anything about that. They're not going to force that other parent, in your case, would be dad, in my case, would be either, to take the children on their weekend. So, they have the right to do it, but not the obligation to do it.
Now, more often what comes up is just being jerked around, late, "Oh sorry, we can't be there because of this and that reason." Some of this more ticky-tack stuff and I say ticky-tack, legally speaking, as a person who's divorced through two custody modifications with three children with the next husband, it's not ticky-tacky in your own real life like withholding the children for three hours over, because of Super Bowls. That's a thing. What are you going to do? Nothing, really, you're not going to do anything except get your kids at the time, because here's your option. Just in general, say, something happened with the Super Bowl, because it was just yesterday, so it's on my mind, this has not happened to me, just as an example. No, it's not, this year, where children are supposed to be returned and often an exchange time would be Sunday night at 6:00 or 6:30. Well, that smack dab in the middle of the Super Bowl.
Then ideally kids would either, before or after, go home early, but then somebody's giving and somebody's getting the Super Bowl with the kids and not. One thing that happens is the person who's in possession of the kids, who's supposed to return them at 6:30 just keeps the kids, "We'll just keep the kids. We're watching the game and what are you going to do?"
Then, at the end, you are going to go to court over a few hours of time and then the judge may look at you and be like, "It was a Super Bowl, why didn't you just agree to let them stay longer?" That's a situation where it's really annoying and sucks and is not something you're likely to do anything legally about. Now, what you may do is take that incident and establish a pattern, a behavior over a period of time where the court order is violated, and that's one of the several. You see what I mean? But it would be very odd for me to consider a situation where a three-hour holdover from the Super Bowl and I'm advising somebody to go to court. I don't think so.
Heather:
On that note, Hannah, we're going to take our next break and we're going to go back to that, because I think it's an important issue to discuss and help our listeners make sense of, well, then how long do have to live like this and what can I do? Because I do have some options on that. I would like to get into it a little bit deeper. So, we're going to take a quick break and we will be right back.
We are back. Hannah, I want to touch on something that we discussed that we are going to wrap it up at the end of last segment about, and I love it, because we're referencing the Super Bowl, which is recent in time. Could be the Grammys, the Oscars, could be whatever it's going on, but Super Bowl's a great one. And the parent says no, they're going to stay later, even though exchange time is 6:00. Now, what I wanted to talk about is usually, more likely than not, we're not going to get a call the next day, because that's the first time that has ever happened. Eventually, that pattern of behavior, finally, there's the one thing that the straw that broke the camel's back, and I know in our practice the client will come in and say, "I've just had it. It's just a constant runaround, no respect for timing, boundaries and schedule."
I tend to find that usually, if one parent really likes the schedule, and likes the routine, the other one doesn't. That's their way of controlling, kind of jerking them around, is not abiding by it. I know it's frustrating for women who are listening out there and they're like, "Oh my God, it's always their way. It's always got to be based upon them." Those are cases where I would say, if that woman came in our office, "Tell me more, what else is going on?" Because when we have a final judgment that includes a parenting plan, I mean, we're talking between 25 to 50 pages of stuff that are all under a court order. It's all a court order that this is how things are done.
Usually, what I'll say, "Well, this can't be the only thing, so what else is going on?" The most important question in our office is, "What is it you want?" Because I need to know what our client wants in order to know if that's even possible. A pound of flesh, we can't give, right? But usually that's what most people want, which isn't really satisfying, [inaudible 00:35:46] a lot of time and money to go through the court system, as you said before, sometimes that result isn't as satisfying as you would hope it be.
But I think, often, and I want to hear if you've had this experience, really, all of these things, multiple really, I guess, violations, disrespect, just constantly violating the parenting plan and everything. What I see that leading as a basis to, often, is a modification, which is not necessarily what we're talking about, but at the end of the day, a lot of times, these are the things that lead to a request to make some changes.
Hannah:
Yeah, I mean, I think that's the way to think of it. This is how I think of playing cards. You're collecting cards and when are you going to be ready to play them? Are you ready to play them on an enforcement? One time, a potential client said to me, his dad was with him, and said, "The last place you want to go for justice is the courthouse stiffs." Like that vengeance idea. I think that's a little cynical, but also the point there is go into court for a bunch of hour late stuff to enforce is probably not going to be worth your time, money and energy, unless you're independently fabulously wealthy and you really do just want to make a point. Well, that's one thing.
But most people, even if they come in hot mad, when they start to see those bills, because you have to prove this, these enforcements are not simple legal stuff. So, when you do all of that, it's like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. I don't know that I really... My principles have changed a bit. I don't really want to spend tens of thousands of dollars on this."
I think to your point, depending on the nature of the infraction, the nature of the violation, they may add up to grounds for modification. That's why you're collecting the cards, and then you're going to go to your lawyer, because in this area, you're in deep water. There's some legal parts and neither Heather and I would advise this, but in some legal things you could Google your way to out of the situation. In this area, it is unlikely for you to be able to pull this off without a lawyer. In Texas, we have a website called Texaslawhelp.org, it's very helpful, and it often says like, "You got to talk to a lawyer about this stuff."
All that to say you're going to collect the cards, all these late visits, not paying the money that they owe, refusing to take to the baseball game if it's part of your order or whatever. You'll have to see, "Okay, am I going to play those cards in an enforcement? Am I going to play those cards because there's enough here to bring about a modification? Or am I going to continue to collect them?" If the violations don't touch and concern the children, and what I mean touch and concern is, at least in Texas, the kid is negatively suffering in some way that's relatively objective. Their grades are getting worse, their psychologist has issues, they're 15 and all kind of dramas coming out. Well, those sorts of violations are going to be what goes through a modification. But the brass tacks of it is, it's difficult for the small stuff.
Laws and rules are for law and rule abiding people. So, a bunch of little one hours here and there, you have to keep in mind the frame of reference of a judge. They're hearing all day long, all kinds of cases with maybe broken bones on a kid, child abuse, molestation situation, criminals, our courts hear all kinds of cases, criminal stuff going on. "Hey, they were two hours late for pickup," just doesn't rise to the level of, "Let's send people to jail," in their mind most often.
I think that's the key in this area is your anger will make you want to get that kind of flush. Your anger will make you act in a way that's not the most rational. That's why when you have practical lawyers like Heather and like me that say, "All right, let's look at your goals." What I tell people every time they come to me talking about a modification, or an enforcement is, "All right, a lot of this is build and see what you can make of it, because it's what your kids need."
Sometimes you don't have a... I mean, moms and dads, when we get to the point where our kids need it to be protected or whatever, we will do what we must do. That's the thing is getting with the lawyer who will... Sometimes, I think it's important for listeners to consider getting with a lawyer who will tell you the truth, not just what you want to hear. Because so many times the people come in telling me they want a modification, or they want an enforcement, I send them home and say, "No, you don't. No, you don't. You start stirring up trouble, you're going to create more trouble for yourself."
Now, if the trouble, like you said, what was it? I forget what you said at the beginning, but if the trouble's brought to you, and there's a modification in your lap or an enforcement in your lap, you don't have a choice. But the decision to pull that trigger is one that I think people have to take super-duper carefully, because it's going to cost you a lot.
More often than not, people end up feeling like they spent a lot of money and didn't get what they want. I mean, sometimes, because to get what you want to make a big modification, like a wholesale change to custody or something, you got to have a lot of stuff that none of us would pray happens to your children or your situation to get there. I mean, it depends on the judge, and the facts, and the jurisdiction, but I think that the key lesson in all of this stuff is, when you're post-judgment, there's already been a decree or an order, or consent decree, or whatever y'all call it, after that, you got to think carefully about opening up that can of worms.
Heather:
There are some other issues, and we touched on it I think at the very beginning, but a lot of times, and I think the best example of this is a couple decides they're going to do their divorce themselves, or they use an online service, they have a decree, biggest one being the house and somebody has to sell it. What happens if they don't? Then they come to us and need help, because it hasn't happened. If you write the divorce correctly, you have remedies that are relatively easy to enforce, but if not, you got a whole nother can of worm, as you said, you got a whole nother issue, almost a completely different legal issue, or a legal action that you're going to have to do to separate yourself from the house. Now, have you seen those kinds of things?
Hannah:
Yeah, and that's different. In the sense of laws and rules for the... That's like the daily child support, visitation, possession, time, issues, that's what I mean. When it comes to your property in the divorce, that's a business transaction, that's very different than all that other stuff I was just talking about, mostly is in the custody context.
When we're talking about the property in a divorce decree, I think of that more like a business transaction. In Texas, you got two year statute of limitations, meaning you got two years after the divorce decree to enforce all of that. So, time is of the essence. But I think that obligation would have to accrue. So, they're not supposed to sell the house for three years, then their obligation didn't start yet. But all that to say those rules are going to be treated more the way you would treat like a business having an issue, right? Because it's a financial transaction sort of thing. It's not the same thing as dealing with kids and is one hour worth it?
Hey, either you vacated the house when you're supposed to or not. You listed the house when you're supposed to or not. You enter the QDRO like you're supposed to or not. That kind of thing, yeah, you can file a motion to enforce. It's, in our world, still called the motion to enforce. What seems to happen more often than not is trying to splice and dice where that decree, like you said, if it's not super-duper, duper clear, because sometimes there'll be something people didn't anticipate in that decree, and then what? So, it's usually lawyers trying to figure that out and what you can do in Texas is ask for some clarification and enforcement.
That's one remedy that you have of what this sort of wonky phrase, that wasn't as specific as maybe it could have been, and asking the court to do some clarification. So, it is definitely an option and I think makes a lot more sense sooner in the property divorce component, that part, versus the custody, kids' possession part. I think it's a lot more straightforward.
Heather:
Now, in Texas, generally speaking now, and it may matter depending on your county, so please let me know. But in general, if they are supposed to sell the house and they didn't, now, are you going to be able to enforce that in the family court or is it likely that you might have to file a separate civil action?
Hannah:
Yeah, no, it would be under that same cause number.
Heather:
It would.
Hannah:
Generally speaking, I mean, there might be some exceptions and it depends on exactly what it is. But yeah, it's going to be related to that decree and you may do it like a motion to compel instead, to compel them to do the thing versus an enforce with criminal penalties and all that. But one of the remedies for a motion to compel is eventually contempt. So, those are just different remedies available to you.
Heather:
What about, many times, and again, these are business transactions, but it's been very important, maybe not the house or the retirement assets, but what about debt or providing property, the deeds or titles, the cars, the boats, whatever, the RV? They just won't do it, they just won't do it.
Hannah:
Well, that's when I think it's really important to consider the speed at which you must get this done. I had a call earlier this week where somebody didn't do what they were supposed to do in the divorce decree, and it's eight years later, "Hey, it's a two-year statute of limitations." So, you need-
Heather:
[inaudible 00:45:41] are they seriously out of luck?
Hannah:
I mean, it depends on the nature of the way it's all drafted. Generally speaking, the statute of limitations on that decree is two years from the date the decree is signed, you better be doing something. So, if you're entitled to deeds, things like that, to get done about your property, you need to stay on top of getting that done.
Heather:
Wow. I mean, that's huge, because I would imagine-
Hannah:
Yeah, you can't wait 20 years. Now, there are other options available to you. Say, there's a... Like the situation I'd had I think where we could use the decree as a muniment of title, you filed the decree as the title transfer, if you can't get them to go do the deed later. So, there are other options, but the key takeaway here is, at least in Texas, once your decree is signed, depending on the obligations included therein. But a deed is a good example. Deeds are usually, you do those commensurate with signing of the decree. You got two years to get them to do that deed.
Heather:
And as we know, many people, well, they better not do it in Texas, I'll tell you, but many people there are so over it by the divorce, they're like, "Oh, I'm going to deal with that another day." Before they know it, a year's gone by, and they don't have these things, that can be very much to their detriment, [inaudible 00:46:53].
Hannah:
It happened to me before I was a divorce lawyer, I was entitled to some deeds in my divorce decree that I didn't realize. The attorney at the time did not follow through and get them. I didn't even really, I mean, I'm sure it's in the papers, but I didn't understand. I was a law student, I didn't really get it. Later, I wanted to get the deeds signed and I was out of luck. Then, I ended up leveraging them in a different way, just the nature... Practically speaking, I got them, but I was outside the period to file to get them forced to be signed. So, you got to move on it.
That's part of why I tell people all the time, "I know you're sick of this and I know you just want the divorce to be over. I hear you. You have to finish strong, you have to end well. Or it could cost you, in terms of money, time, reputation, substantially in ways you may not fully understand." The time to put the most energy into your divorce is at the end. The problem is people often drag it out so long worrying about one hours here and there, that by the time it's after the mediation and time to get things done, they're really sick of it and then they just want to say, "Whatever."
Okay. I mean, your lawyer's not going to force. You have to going to do what you tell them to do, to some extent. If you're listening to this and you're nearing the end and you feel like you're almost a home base, you need to get that extra win to see it through, and maybe have a closing meeting with your attorney like, "Hey, that's absolutely everything been done that I need to do?" It's your life, so the most prudent thing to do, and I'm sure your lawyer will advise you, but just in case, go through and just read it. What does this say everybody has to do? Check it all off, was it done? And then make sure it's all buttoned up.
Heather:
Very well said. Now, lastly, Hannah, I ask all of our guests this question before we go, if you could impart on our listeners what you've learned about divorce and representing women throughout your career, that you could share with them that might be helpful?
Hannah:
I think, the most, at least, especially in the context of this conversation, is settling in, once the decree is done, once the divorce is done, once the custody is done, you have a choice to make. Divorce can make you bitter or divorce can make you better, and you get to choose. A lot of women, I think more than men, default, de facto, tacitly consent to becoming bitter. They sit around and they ticky-tack, and they keep score. "I just want to make him... He gets away with everything. He always gets to do whatever." Okay, yeah, maybe that's true. You need to settle in for the long game and keep your eye on the big picture, especially if you have children. Keep your eye on what really matters to them. Thinking long-term, in a strategic, big-picture perspective, and don't get down in the mud, because both of you get dirty and one of you likes it.
Staying out of that and trying to check our emotions in that situation, it's not about keeping score, it's not about getting even. At least, if you have minor children, it's usually for most of us about the kids, and trying to keep that the main thing, I think, and settling in to what life looks like in that perspective and in a release and a letting go and figuring out how to navigate that.
We're doing a webinar next week about My Ex Won't Co-Parent With Me, Now What? We're actually launching a three-part series that I'm calling The Long-Timers Club of people who are divorced, what do you do after? And how to navigate some of this to when you assess, is it annoying? Is it legally actionable? Is it dangerous? And what do you do? So, for people who need some additional support after the modification, after the divorce decree is done, some practical, real-world advice for people in any jurisdiction. There'll be info on all of our socials for that.
Heather:
Okay, yeah, if you can give us a link to that, that would be amazing. We'll absolutely have that link in there for our listeners as well. Well, thank you so much. We have reached the end of our show. I really appreciate you as our guest today. It has been such a pleasure to hear your thoughts on Texas law and your point of view, and I know our listeners will enjoyed it. So, thank you so much, Hannah. Of course, you can find out more about Hannah and her law firm at hembreebell.com. The exact website will be in our show notes. I appreciate you so very much.
Hannah:
Yes, thank you very much, Heather. Thanks for having me.
Heather:
Thank you for joining me for this episode of Women Winning Divorce. If you or someone you know is looking for answers regarding divorce, reach out to us at floridawomenslawgroup.com and also join the conversation on social at Women Winning Divorce. Women Winning Divorce is the place for an elevated conversation on how women can thrive during times of adversity in order to live their best life.
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