“You can’t see the picture when you’re in the frame.”- Christina McGhee. In this week’s episode, Heather Quick, attorney and owner of Florida Women’s Law Group, discusses parenting through the divorce process with Divorce Parenting Expert and CEO of Divorce and Children, Christina McGhee. Christina and Heather discuss the complexities and share some practical tips to parent effectively through a transitionary period, like divorce. “The only thing that is constant in life is change.”- Christina McGhee
About Our Guest
Throughout her career, Christina McGhee has educated parents and professionals on how to minimize the impact of divorce on children. In her book, PARENTING APART: How separated and divorced parents can raise happy and secure kids, Christina offers parents valuable strategies for dealing with the "real-life" everyday challenges of co-parenting.
One of her core beliefs is that divorce doesn't make you a bad parent. It makes you a parent going through a bad time.
Because she is passionate about helping parents get through that bad time, Christina also maintains an active coaching practice that allows her to work with Moms and Dads all over the world.
Christina has also leveraged her broad range of experience to create the unique multidisciplinary Co-Parenting Specialist Training Program, which she offers in partnership with the Mosten Guthrie Academy. It teaches divorce professionals how to use a “child-centered" approach to engage with co-parents more effectively, deepen their understanding of how divorce impacts families, and use that knowledge to help co-parents craft better parenting plans and agreements.
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"Women Winning Divorce" is a radio show and podcast hosted by Heather Quick: Attorney, Entrepreneur, Author and Founder of Florida Women’s Law Group, the only divorce firm for women, by women. Each week Heather sits down with innovative professionals and leaders who are focused on how you can be your best self, before, during or after divorce.
In these conversations, we are looking at how women can win at life. With our guests, we enjoy the opportunity to explore ways all women can win and enhance their life, no matter where they are in their journey, because divorce is just point in life, not the end and not what defines you, rather it can be a catalyst for growth.
Come join the conversation on social media, and join our Facebook group, Women Winning Divorce and send comments and suggestions, we want to bring you content that helps move your life forward.
This program was created to provide tips and insight to women with family law issues. It is not intended to be legal advice because every situation is different.
Welcome to women winning divorce. I am your host, Heather quick. I am an attorney, entrepreneur, author and founder of. Florida Women's Law Group. The only divorce firm for women by women, I love thinking big, thinking outside the. Box creating creative. Solutions for women and empowering women to win in all aspects of their life. Our approach at Florida Women's Law Group is to provide women with a strategy to not only achieve their objectives, but win at life. I believe that what may show up is adversity is simply an opportunity to change and improve your life in each episode, I sit down with innovative professionals and leaders who are focused on how you can be your best self before, during, and after divorce. In these conversations, we are looking at how women can win at life. I have the unique opportunity to meet women when they are at a transition period of life, but that is only the beginning to becoming your best self and winning at life on your terms with our guests. We enjoy the opportunity to explore ways all women can win. And enhance their life no matter where they are in their journey, because divorce is just a point in life, not the end, and not what defined you. Rather a catalyst for your growth.
Heather
Welcome to this week's episode of Women winning Divorce. I'm Heather quick, owner and attorney of Florida Women's Law Group today I'm being joined by Christina McGee. Welcome, Christina.
Christina
Thanks, Heather. It's great to be here.
Heather
Well, we are just. Thrilled to have you. I think that. Let me take a deep breath as I go. Through everything that you've. Done, which is so exciting. So listeners, Christina and the divorce parenting expert, author and founder of Divorce and Children, also written parenting and part, and serves as education and training director for the Split Outreach project that recently produced 2. And additionally, she's created Co parenting specialist training program and partnership with the most in Guthrie Academy. Wow, Christina. Ann, I mean. Least not all. I mean you're you've got your masters in social work, is that correct?
Christina
Yes, that is. Well, it certainly wasn't by design. You know, I'm a parenting expert who's kind of coached and worked in this space for probably the better part of 20 years. I I think once I passed 20, I just stopped counting, but a long time, safe to say. And you know, it was never really in my plan to be a. Divorce coach. You know, when I originally started out, my sites were kind of set on specializing in trauma resolution and, you know, back then I didn't realize that the trauma I would be dedicating my. Career to would be. You know, a lot of us don't think. About it in. That way, but it is, it is a crisis in the life. Of a family. And I have worked on you know. How do we get through this in the best way possible? So like a lot of other people in this space, it was my personal circumstances that really kind of set me on this path when I got married, I wasn't just a blushing bride, but I also became. A bonus mom. To two very young kids. And to be honest, I don't have any idea what I was. Doing even though. I'm a child from a divorce myself. Really the only thing I was clear about is kind of what I didn't want to do, but I wasn't very clear about what to do and so I took that masters in social work, right. And I said on a quest for. How can we make this thing work? For my dumbest kids, and that's kind of where everything began. And so I started looking at resources to help us do this better. Much of what I found was like really vague or it didn't really mesh with real life, and so I eventually started digging in and started teaching courses for separating and divorcing parents in my jurisdiction. Because that was the judicial requirement. You file for divorce and you take a four hour parenting class. And I was one. Of those people who taught. That class, for probably about 12 years and things unfolded from that point.
Heather
Now and you said so where is that just so that our listeners know where where at least what part of the country? Were were you? Teaching and doing that course at that.
Christina
Yeah, Houston, TX. So I'm located right outside of Houston. I'm Texas girl.
Heather
Well, there's there's a lot, a lot of similarities between Florida and Texas. I I do believe, except not as many cowboy hats around here, but. But otherwise, in the wall lot different on. Some things I have a few few friends. Who practice in? The Texas area, so I'm aware of some of the differences. But you know, overall I think this is a great topic. I am really excited to get into it with you because this week we're going to talk about. You know, parenting through divorce, building effective parenting plan and Co parenting, which? And that sounds like. A lot for our listeners, but it. Is a lot and you know I find. You know, for so many women. You know, come to our. Our office, how they present here at the time, you know, very difficult spot because it's the beginning of the divorce or thinking about it. And it can be very overwhelming to think about how are we going to parent together? And I think you would agree, there's there's a spectrum. Of individuals as to how. Well, they are able to naturally Co parent when they're no longer married and some who are just don't. Even know where to start?
Christina
Right. There's a broad range, a very broad range. And the important thing to remember is that it changes over. So sometimes yes.
Heather
I think it does a lot. I mean hopefully yes I do and. I I do share that with. So many clients, like when you're in that crisis beginning of of the trauma, that's. All these things. It is just hopeful that emotions die down as we get some closure and move forward, and that it gets a little bit easier to Co. Parent and you both get better. Especially if you educate yourselves right and. You have. Use resources out there to really help. You both manage that process.
Christina
Well, and I would say that even in those circumstances where you don't have a cooperative Co parent, you are in kind of that high conflict situation. There is still a lot you can do. I very much believe in the power. Of one right. And so as one. Parent you can make a choice and a commitment about how you want to show up for your kids and what your Co parenting values are, and you operate out of those instead of what the other parent does or doesn't do. And a big piece of that, like you already pointed out is you know what kind of information? And support are you getting? To get those skills to get that. Perspective that you need to really show. Up for your kids in a profound.
Heather
And you know, as as important that is. That is I. Mean it really is. The main goal, obviously, are the children. But I do have to share for our listeners, particularly in Florida and it's pretty much I think you know, universal but. The law of really stresses here in Florida about. The cooperativeness of the parents and you know, maintaining that the children have a right to that that frequent and, you know, continuing relationship with both parents and that the the courts do view here in Florida, we call it time sharing now no longer custody. So that is what you know, I use that interchangeably so often because most individuals think, OK, I want custody of my children, but the courts view it as well. They're not either one of your possession. And the two of you are going to have to share that time with the children, and that is going to require some cooperation and some communication. Much of which may. Be lacking in the marriage. So now we have to be created as divorced parents, which I think does present can present a challenge.
Christina
Well, it's absolutely challenge. I mean, we need to redefine the relationship, right? We're going from partners to always parent.
Heather
Oh, I like that.
Christina
Right. And just because just because the relationship ends, right, the family needs to continue and in the beginning stages, that's really a tall order for so many parents, right? Because we're looking at ways, well, how can I move away from this relationship? How can I, you know, start my own family being independent person? We're not thinking about it, but really, parents and children, especially in early stages, are moving in very different directions. Parents are looking for ways to go from being a we to being a me. And for kids, kids. Are looking how can they move in? Looser you know, how can they stay connected and maintain those really important relationships in their lives and children deserve that. They deserve to be able to be anchored in family and to have an active and engaged relationship with most parents. And I think we've come a long way in terms of how we're thinking about those relationships when divorce. Happens and just using the word Co parenting is a big shift for lots of us, and moving away from words like custody and visitation to time sharing and and parenting plans. But we still have a long ways to go because those ideas. About what's fair and what I'm entitled to still find their way into those negotiations when we're trying to sort out what life is going to look like moving forward.
Heather
And it's so you know, because there's the loss of that marital. Relationship so there. Is the grieving about? But then you know, I know you see this too, and we see it. All all the time. You know you have. Roles within the marriage and now those are going to change, particularly as the children. Are going to spend and not always equal time, but it's getting. Closer and closer to that. In this circumstance, in most circumstances where it's appropriate, and I think particularly. For women and. That's obviously the perspective I'm coming from, but you know their identity is is so tied into being the mother, the caregiver. And it's really. Hard because now they're like, wait, that's my identity, and now they're going to be with their dad, who doesn't give them a bath, who doesn't make their lunch. Like, who doesn't give? And I think sometimes they see it in all these ways. How that's going to be? But then who am I going to become? And I think that women in particular have a real challenge with that because it's the reality of where the courts are going in a lot of cases that, you know, the children are going to spend. Almost half and half time. It's a 6040 at a minimum, so their whole identity that's been wrapped up and being the mom, the main person, it's hard. I think that's where sometimes becomes so much resistance in the Co parenting or or, you know, sharing the information and making decisions together that they previously made. You know to what they felt like. On their own, and I think I think that present sometimes really getting challenged to getting to that next step.
Christina
Yeah, but I think in some ways, because I I speak about this quite a bit with professionals and with parents, you know. Women sometimes shoot themselves in the foot, right? Because we. He has maybe taken on that role where I mean, let's face it in more of situations, more often than not, women are kind of the emotional caretakers were the ones maintaining the families and tracking schedules and, you know, making sure the birthday parties happen and, you know, paying attention to a lot of the details, we have a certain way of being in a marriage relationship, a certain way of parenting. That has to change, but I encourage you know, moms to think about that inexperience doesn't equal incompetence. And just because Dad hasn't done those things doesn't mean Dad can't learn to do those things. It's actually really important for children to be able to see both of. Your parents engage in those ways. The other thing is, is that when we kind of hang on to my home is going to be the primary home, I'm going to be the parent in charge and we deprive the other parent of that opportunity. We also tend to get saddled with being the disciplinarian, the one who has to, you know. Make sure all homework's done, we find out. Ohh that's not helping with the homework. That's not packing lunches. Well, because we've kind of set up a dynamic where. We are the one. Right. The other place is just a place they they spend some time, but I'm really the one who has to take care of all those things. When if we find a way to redefine our relationship and how can we each learn new skills, how can we really sink into what needs to stay the same? And what needs? To change when we can use A2 home concept and we get both. Places is a place that children belong. You have parents that are taking a more active role in doing all the things right that kids need because they feel valued. And so a lot of it is if we don't want to be the ones that are doing the lion share of the work that are having to be that heavy with everything, then we need to rethink our position about that and is hanging on to that. Identity really serving our children's best interest.
Heather
And I I think that is. Just so, so well said. And and also ultimately you. As the mother, if you have holding on so tight that things are changing and it can all be a positive new change, but at first I think it helps to have that outlook because it's going to change. And the reality is, the more you can be a part, I think, and we'll talk a little bit about that parenting plan. The more that you. Can participate and embrace how things are going to be. I think it's better for you and your family versus the court. Entering an order that's going to be, I mean it's, you know, you say cookie cutter. I mean it is I mean we have standard orders here and if you're not going to work together to craft a plan that maybe meets your families needs, you're going to get that cookie cutter and you're kind of stuck with. It right and. It doesn't really help. Meet the unique needs of the family or desires that might truly. Be in everyone's best interest.
Christina
Well, you're really basically asking a stranger to make decisions about your children's lives. Like the judge, doesn't the judge doesn't love your children? The judge doesn't know what your kids need, but you do, you know. And so it really the most power you're ever going to have in this process is when we can, you know, sit down and find some way to negotiate this to, you know, engage with. Professionals that will guide us in a child centered way and we really want to keep kids at the center of this process, not in the middle.
Heather
Yes. And then? Ultimately, I think, which there's so much. To talk about but. And we have the wholesale, I know we're on the. 1st place but I. Wanted to ask. You that because, how do you help? You know what are some things that you do say to to the individuals you're working with because? If you can take that approach and it's child centered and we're really thinking about the best interest of the children and remove from your thought process, he is getting that and I'm losing out on this right like. It's to him, somebody. Else is winning. You're losing versus. We're trying to remove that and keep it on the children. What is some helpful advice on that you. Might have.
Christina
Well, I think one of the really important questions that I encourage parents to think about is that when your children look back on this time in their lives, what will you? Have done to make them proud. What do you want the outcome of there? What do you want the outcome to be for your children at the end of this? What do you want life to look like? For them, a year from now, five years from now. What are they going to remember? About their wedding or their. Graduation, right. That's really what we're talking about is, you know, instead of really focusing on and again, let's, let's get rid of that mentality of winners and losers. Right. Because the truth is when a divorce happens, everybody loses something. Like there really aren't any winners, and so the best option is how do you redefine life for you and your kids and the way you do that is by engaging in a process by making choices by thinking not just about the immediate moment, but thinking about the future and what you want it to look like and how will your choices today. Impact your children's tomorrow.
Heather
Well, I love that. And I think that is great advice, although I I the name of the show and we're about to take break is women winning divorce because I do think that everybody can win. In the divorce
Heather
You know the things. That we are the relationships change and you can still win if we really focus on not anyone lose when we focus on achieving objectives. But most importantly, what we're talking about today, how do we allow the children to win and I think there are ways to do that and make it a difficult it still can be a positive. But we got to take our first break and then we're going to be back with Christina. And as we are on our break with her, please take a moment to leave us a review to help other women find us. Here at women willing and we will be right. We are back from our break and again today I am joined by Christina McGee and we're discussing how you can build an effective parenting plan and I'm really excited about this because Christina, I have been through so many mediations, so many cases for years. Of course, when we first started there. Was no such thing as parenting. Plan and now there is and I think by its name. It it really suggests, hey, this is a plan, this is something you can put some thought into and really provides you with a road map, a guide for your family. But I'd love your input and expertise, Christina on you know how. How do you help people build an effective plan? What things? Do they need to be thinking about?
Christina
Sure. Well, I have a. Little bit of a different take on parenting plans than most, right? Because in a lot of family court systems, parenting plans basically focus on how we spending. And the kids, how are we going to divvy that up? Right. Who's paying what to whom? How are we handling holidays? How are we deciding? Vacations and summer plans. And who's making decisions, right. And and for many, that's kind of the scope of the parenting plan. But from my perspective, we want to step away from those. Kind of cookie cutter plans. You know, saying we're going to fit our children's lives into this plan and instead craft a plan that fits our children's lives. And so for me, the starting place of parenting plans is again really asking ourselves that question of what needs to change and what needs to stay the same. What is it that our kids need? Because even though your your relationship has changed, your children's need. Everything that your children needed before the divorce, they're going to continue to need after the divorce. So I think that parents can use a parenting plan like you said, as a road map, right? We're going to map out how do we want this process? How do we want to handle this big change in the family? What is it going to look like for our kids? How are we going to support one another's relationship? What do we need to do in terms of? Allocating time so children can continue to maintain an active and engaged relationship with each of us. What would life look like before the divorce? You know, how are we spending time with our kids? Know for example if. Bridget went to Girl Scouts with Mom every Tuesday. How can you make sure that continues? You know, if Dad was coaching soccer for Billy. Well, shouldn't that continue? So how are we going to do those things? And also how are we going to plan for the? Future what happens when the kids get sick? Who's going to pick them up? How are we going to cover that? How are we going to decide about extracurricular activities or what kind of values do we have? What kind of values do we want to instill in our kids, and what is that going to look like moving forward?
Heather
Well, that does sound way more than a cookie cutter and and so powerful though for conversation. And I am guessing these are some of the things that you. Present bringing to the table and and you know whether it's is that that more appropriate in your courses or in you know do you work with individual couples trying to go through this process?
Christina
Well, so I actually trained professionals and how to use the child centered approach. So I'm a divorce coach, coach by trade. I have a small select practice more often than not, the clients that are finding me are ones where the wheels have come off. They're dealing with really complicated, difficult situations like a parent that has mental health issue. Issues or child rejections going on? Kids are not adjusting well. There's high conflict and I have, you know, a parent that's really struggling, right? To really keep it about the kids and how. Do I handle these situations? Some parents come to me in the very early stages and from the get go they decided they want to do this differently and so they want. And you know they want coaching and insight on how do we approach this first conversation. How do we manage this transition from one home to two? What can we? Do in terms of designing A parenting plan. I would say that the vast majority, though, mean in terms of how the parenting plan is handled. They relying parents are relying on the expertise of the professionals that they engage with, whether their family, lawyers or mediators or divorce coaches or therapists, right. And I really look at all those people as. Being first responders. Divorce and they have the ability to really significantly influence how this process unfolds for. Place you know they can be a very positive influence and ask a lot of the questions that we're talking about. And so that's why I chose to train professionals without using a child centered approach, regardless of their discipline or how they're engaging with parents, they can adopt these philosophies and really give guidance and educational support to parents. And that's what the. Co parenting specialist certification Training program is that I designed so. Professionals come together in a multidisciplinary course that is spanned over four days. You really learn about, you know, how does divorce impact kids? What are the emotional stages? How does it? How is it different for kids depending on their age and stage of development? That makes a very big difference in how you're planning, you know. For a kid that's 13 versus a kid, that's three. So I provide that information and I really encourage parents to look for professionals that can align with your values with what you want to achieve. That can really help guide. Do you? During a time when the emotions are really high, right? Gosh, we're super stressed and we need somebody who can kind of step outside that process who's not initially engaged and really give us, you know, the insight and perspective we need can ask us those really important questions that are going to put those issues in front of us. In those early stages.
Heather
Now when I think, I think that's. That's great because. And it's it's getting a different way to look at it and being open. But I think first and foremost, obviously child centered and and really wanting to say, hey, we're going to. Put those at the top of the list and then work downward. But you know so many, a lot of people think parenting plan and immediately assume just what you're saying. That the time sharing is. Going to be 50/50 now, do you think that 50/50 assumption? Is fair or true?
Christina
Well, I'm not a huge proponent of 50/50. As you might guess, and here's why, because I don't think it's a very realistic option, right? Because I've look, I've been married for almost 29 years. My husband and I have never spent 50/50 time. With our kids, right? I mean, sometimes it's 70/30 one direction sometimes. It's, you know, 80/20, the other direction, just depending on what's going on with. Children, what their needs are, what I have going on, what he has going on. Like really. It's not a very realistic option and I think when parents get really caught up in this idea. 50/50 What we're talking about more often than not is how are we keeping it fair and what feels fair for parents doesn't usually feel so great. Kids, right? And when we treat time with children like a commodity that needs to be divvied up, kids tend to internalize that. And they start monitoring. How am I keeping things fair and equal? Am I being, you know, is it fair? Is it even? And so then that increases their level of anxiety because they're always wondering that they might really want to have their birthday at Mom's house one year. But is that really fair to Dad? I don't want. To hurt Dad's feelings. And so kids start worrying and tending more to parents emotional needs than their own. So I really think if we can drop percentages and really get down to the business of what do our kids need. How is how can we spend time in a flexible and fluid way? The other piece of that is you can spend all your time and energy crafting the perfect time sharing arrangement where it's 50/50 or 60/40, and guess what? Six months from now, things may change for your kids and what happens when that plan isn't working anymore and your kids need something else?
Heather
I think that is. Some great insight. Unfortunately, the legislature and the court system here in Florida doesn't look at it that way at all. And and that is, I think, a shortcoming in in in many areas of family law because the flexibility part from that legal standpoint, you know, the courts have. You know, they got to. Give you some rules and but they don't. Even start with. That approach of the you know how much time do everybody have or spend and it does vary and so that's that's unfortunate because it makes a lot of sense and if our system tended to be more like that. I think then. It would allow for, you know, decisions. And schedules to be based more on the children than the way it is now, which is giving it up so that. They they say, depending on who the. Court judge is so that the. Children have equal time with the parents. But it's all. In an effort to make the parents you know have close to equal time, which again fair. And I really like that analogy you made, and then, you know, the other side of it, which it really shouldn't. Be but it is. In Florida is that. It it reflects the money and the. Support for the children. And so it gets very. Intertwined and sometimes in. An effort to change the money, reduce the money. There's more time given and it gets all out of whack, and nothing's clear and intelligent is what you just said, frankly, but. And that's also. Much more therapeutic, right, that we're really thinking about the kids, but. I don't. I don't think that's really the way that our laws here. Approach it, unfortunately.
Christina
Well, I and and I'm curious, you know, because I imagine Florida might be like lots of other places is that if parents can come to a different agreement and present a reasonable plan. To the court, you know, is the court willing to consider that? I mean, a lot of it has to do with in the beginning stages if we can't agree, guess what? Somebody's going to make those decisions for us. And that's when the court comes in and says, no, we're going to do it this way. This is what's fair. This is what's equitable. This is. What the statute says. But if you can. Work with your family lawyer where you can work with a mediator. You can find. Some way to negotiate agreement that you feel is in your best, your children's best interest. We didn't have a lot of options and and I will tell you you're absolutely right in the beginning stages when those emotions kick. In sometimes we need rules, right? We need that. Structure, but it also doesn't have to stay that way. And a lot of times I will encourage parents to work with their family lawyer about building in a back door. And so that back door is, you know. If, if we can't agree, if there. Are big changes in the future. What we will both do is seek out an opportunity to talk about it and try and work it out before we go to court, right. And you can do that with your family lawyers. You can do that with a mediator. You can do that with a therapist. You can do that with a divorce coach, but write that into your agreement that if things change and they're not working for the kids, here's what we do next. And so you put in kind of a stopgap. So we don't have this repeat litigation. We keep coming back and trying to modify orders or we stay stuck. In an unhelpful situation in an unhelpful parenting plan.
Heather
Yeah, I think that that's a wonderful idea. And in cases where. It's already been high conflict through the proceedings, we try to put that in there and encourage that that, you know, before you file, you're going to agree to mediate. You can have your lawyer you. Know with your mediating with. Your lawyers or. Them going with you to a mediator, but as an effort to try to get a resolution. Before filing to that, it's just not always filing things in court.
Heather
And I think that's really helpful. And yes, just answer or to comment on your comment, yeah, if the. Parents can work. Together and have a parenting plan, the court will. Pretty much, I would say 95% of the. Time sign off on it. There used to be. Some you know, some judges who wouldn't, who would still say that's not in the best interest of the children, but most of them are retired by now and recognize that can't put themselves in the place of two parents who come to an agreement right on what they believe the is in the best interest of the children.
Heather
They're the ones that you know are the closest and should decide that so that can be really helpful. And I think that. Is where you. Know what you. Do and teach and help people understand that there can be another way? And it's a mindset shift too, though I think that on a on a higher level like this isn't about who's winning time or who's getting more money. This is really how are we going to work this for our children so that they are the most successful flourish through this process, right?
Christina
Right. And I think you bring up a really important point and that is, is that not all cases? Are the same, right? And you are going to have again that 10% those really high intractable conflict cases where, yeah, you might have. And depend on the court to make a decision for you and in those cases then you work with what you've got and you do the very best that you can. And I would encourage parents in those situations to think about plugging into some support. So that you don't, you don't allow the other parents actions. To guide how you show up for your kids, right, that's a that's a separate issue. It doesn't matter what the other parent does or doesn't do. It's about how you want to show up.
Heather
Exactly which is it's so true and I I have said this many times. You know we can't. Control others, but we can control how we react and we can really look at that and change what we have. The power changes ourselves, which we are going to talk about. The 3rd 2nd segment on on Co Parenting when maybe. We aren't that forwarded with the Co parent so. We're going to take a short break. We will. Be right back listeners. So please subscribe so you don't miss an episode of Women winning divorce and we will be. Right back. We are back from our last break and again today. I am joined by Christina McGee and we're discussing what to do if your Co parent is in Co parenting. Ohh this is going to be the best segment I'm telling you, Christina. Say all this, there's you better turn this up now, because if I heard this question once, I have heard a million times. Like, no wait for Christina's answers. That's because. And and obviously lawyers are going to see more high conflict because there are a lot of people who amicably resolve things and sometimes with just one lawyer, sometimes we're not even involved. And so we see what seems like a lot of my conflict, but I know that's not everything that's out there. But you know Christina. You've talked about this. In your book, and I just think that if you could describe to our listeners first what high conflict Co parenting refers to.
Christina
Right. Well, there's a lot of ways to define. It and. You know, I think for most parents, they know it when. They see it and. And and you're usually high conflict is a situation and it can exist in a number of different ways. The two main ways are one where you have both parents that are really contributing. It's kind of the, he said. She said dynamic. You know, we're both trying to control each other. And and and just dig in our heels and. There's a lot. Of polarization, right? A lot of strong perspectives and opinions, and it's really about trying to control. Each other. And then there's another level, another aspect of conflict where you have one parent who really does want to focus on the children, really does want to get along, wants to minimize the conflict as much as possible. But you have another parent who's in it to win it, right? And they're just not going to give any ground, no matter how. Hard you try. And it exists in lots of ways. It can be very subtle. You know, where a parent says, well, if you're showing up to the. Soccer game I won't. I'm not going to be in the same. I'm not going to share the same space as you. I had a parent one time told me he absolutely refused to breathe in the same. As the other parent, right? So it can get very, very intense. You know parents not acknowledging each other at events or dropping kids off at the end of the driveway. And they have to walk up themselves. To the door. To all out walls, I mean, there's so many ways it. Can manifest and and it. And it can be really, really difficult. A lot of my work. Work is about supporting that parent who wants to step. Away from the conflict. You know what can I do to change things? And unfortunately, a lot of parents fall in the trap of thinking that, you know well if they. Do that then. I need to do this. It becomes this tip for tat mentality and so it's about how do we break that cycle. And take control of what we can control, which is our how we respond, the attitude that we maintain, how we process things with our kids, the choices that we make. Essentially really getting very and this is probably one of my top tips for parents in those kind of situations. Is that you need to get real clear about what your Co parenting values are. What kind of parent do you want to be for your children? Regardless of what the other parent. Does or doesn't do. Really getting very clear and defining that and in my book I talk about creating for yourself a guiding principle which is basically a one to two sentence statement that articulates what those Co parenting values are. And you can create one together jointly, or you can create one for your. So regardless of how I feel about the other parent, I'm going to make sure that my children know that they are loved and cared for and they have an active and engaged, you know, relationship with both of us. Could be that simple, right? But articulating that Co parenting value, you can use it as really like you're crafting your North star, because when times get tough, right, and you need to be reminded like, what is most important, what do you value that can come in enormously handy in those moments. And so when you're facing a difficult decision. Asking yourself, you know, what's my value about this? How do I want to show up for my kids? Is my decision, is my choice and how I handle this is going to make things better? Is it going to make things? Incredibly worse for my kids. You know what is going to be the outcome? I wonder how this feels for my kids. And so by engaging in kind of that thinking process and that kind of commitment on the front and it can make a big difference in shaping, you know how you handle some of these situations.
Heather
Yeah, I think and you know sometimes I think. Being able to maybe recognize the pattern, and I know you know and I've explained of course to clients over the years, you know your reaction, you know. He gets a reaction which then creates another reaction and it's just been a dance. But if you opt out. Or you show up in a different way. It may or may, but it's going to change at some point at least, maybe change the way you feel and and the anger that. Maybe comes with you. When you're in it like that because it's hard. Conflict is conflict, and it mostly even though I know some people. It seems feed off it because they're getting something out of, you know, whatever that is, it's feeding something for them. Usually I think can wear you out. It's exhausting and it takes so much energy to. Be angry all the time and fighting. And if you can, you know, even if you. Say, let's just try it for. A month just try like doing the opposite of what you normally do. And just kind of changing that pattern that dance. It's bound to change, and hopefully for the better, right, but at least for that person who is going to say I'm. Not going to. Participate in the same way. To this tip for tat, like you said, or he did this. So I've got to do that. And you know, that may give you more peace. And I think our children see that. If you find a way to get more peace with, even if. They continue their behavior.
Christina
Oh, absolutely. And I I gave parents the analogy of managing conflict, like playing tug of war. Right. You each, you know, have one end to the loop, right? And you have. A choice they pull. You can pull back, but what? Happens if you drop the rope. Right. So we all have kind of this history, like you said, this dance that we do this way of being the way of making decisions, the way of disagreeing, arguing, trying to control situations. And the first step is right, identifying our Co parenting values. But we also have to have a level of awareness about. What is the path? Right. Where are we getting triggered? Where are we reacting instead of responding? And So what do we need to do to interrupt that process to introduce a new step into the dance, to drop the rope. And a lot of times that requires having some perspective, right, which in the moment is really difficult. To get and that's where I really feel. One of the defining differences between families that get through this process well and those that struggle for years has to do with having access to information, good information and support. So it's hard to see the. Picture when you're in the. But how can you find someone who's outside? The frame of your. Life that can give you some insight and perspective, and it may be a trusted friend. It may be an experienced family lawyer. It may be a therapist or coach, right? Someone that can who's not emotionally in it, who can. Give you some. Perspective about recognizing those steps, recognizing those patterns, and then help you connect with tools to change up the steps.
Heather
And I think that's so important. And and I think that's where that therapeutic part and that coach you know comes into play because. You may recognize that you you don't like this pattern. You don't like this dance, but you don't know. You don't have to. Have the scarily the tools that. Available to you to how to change. You know you want to, and I think that's kind of exactly what you're talking about is the kind. Of people that. You know you can work with because they know. They want to change. This but they don't know how. They're not really sure and they need someone. To equip them. With the tools and the ability to recognize things without reacting. Like recognize something instead of? Reacting some better tools with. Which to respond and and manage their emotions. And again, you know, keeping their children at the. At the forefront of why you're doing this?
Christina
Right. Well, none of this is easy. I mean, we can talk about it all day long, but when? It comes down to. It this is really really hard. It's complicated. It takes a lot of effort and a lot of dedication and a lot of commitment and so.
Heather
It really does, yes. It's easy to say, but it's so hard. To do because. History, the relationship, the path that gets into all of it, and then just your heart with your children and yeah, it gets caught up in all of it for sure. But but it can be done. And it's usually worth, I think what you would agree for sure, because it's your children and their future. And what they experience when you're in the middle of such conflict, even after the divorce. Now we sometimes run off and the court orders it as a Co parenting assistants. I guess device, you know that all these apps we have, like our family wizard, I know there's parentship and we parents are options that I think allow those types of situations. I don't know. Maybe more of a neutralized. Way with which to communicate. Do you find those to be helpful at all?
Christina
Well, I recommend to parents regularly. You know, if you can, you know, agree to use the Co parenting app. I think it's super helpful and for other reasons in addition to kind of structuring the communication but. Parenting in general tracking, you know, kids raising kids, complicated processes, not for the faint of heart. Right. OK. And so now you're doing it out of two. If you use a Co parenting app, it's a way to streamline your communication. It puts everything in one place because let's face it, you know, we've got texting, voice mails, emails. We've got all these different ways to share information. We can message each other through Facebook or Instagram, right? And so with the Co parenting app, you've got everything. In one place it you know, it allows us for more clarity of communication. And a lot of these apps. Lots of great added benefits like calendars and ways to share information about the Doctor Bill that needs to be paid or the dentist appointment. Or can we swap weekends sharing pictures of the kids? You know, all that can be an added benefit. So I I believe that Co parenting apps are definitely an asset for parents. And even if you're not in a situation where you have super high conflict. I still think it can be very beneficial because it just makes managing those two households a little bit easier.
Heather
I think you're right and you know, I think as a parent. Of all teenagers. Well, I guess one one of my child, one of my, my oldest is no longer a teenager, but close enough. But you know, sometimes they just text one parent instead of both. And you know, they're playing. It and and we're together in the same house. So kids are really smart and they're working towards their advantage and you know, we know that and we're together. So when you're not, they see an opening and see an opportunity, which I do think it's just normal part of being teenagers, they're going to see it like, oh, hey, I can work this angle and say, well, Mom said, sure, I can do this, you know? You know and then. If, if there's no communication, then you know, maybe you're allowing things to happen at your house that, well, that's really not what's going on over there, but you two are talking and haven't really agreed on maybe some. Boundaries for your teenagers, right? That's very different. If we're Co parenting. Elementary school children, but then once. You get into that phase. That could be it's so important just to have, you know, trying to have some at least agreed upon values and structures that we're both going to try. It's not easy. It's not perfect, but we're going to try to maintain to get these children to adulthood.
Christina
Right. And I I think kids will absolutely pick up what you're 3 or 13 when parents aren't communicating with each other, you know, any self respecting kid is going to try and leverage that. That's just. That's our job is to test the limits. And so I think it's really important for parents not to put kids in the drivers seat when it comes to communicating, you know, so how can we figure out how we're going to exchange information with each other? And you know what, part of the we being a good parent, doesn't mean that you do everything exactly the same and you are completely. And sync. Sometimes it's about agreeing to disagree, like we just know we see this particular issue differently and we have different ways of handling that. You know, we each bring different strain. To the parenting relationship with our kids. And so it's also about being clear about that and being flexible and not. You know, really casting judgment or criticizing one another, but just accepting different as different. And when kids, you know, know what to expect from each parent in each household, they can manage those differences really easily. But a lot of it has to do with how we're handling the differences.
Heather
Yes, I think so. And I think again, just like you said, they know when you 2 haven't talked, right. And so I got, you know, my money. To go out over. Here, but they don't know that, so I don't. Hey I need my you. Know whatever allowance to go here or there and that's something very innocent, but still. They know how to. And that's their job to, to keep everybody on their toes, particularly their parents. But Christina, this has been amazing. I I'm so so appreciate you being on our show today. I think it's great advice and I really, really appreciate it. But before we go lastly, I always ask our guests this question and I'm wondering if you can impart on. The listeners, what you've learned about divorce and and how and empowering women throughout your career and what you could maybe shed some light on. Give them some some wisdom.
Christina
So probably the biggest lesson that I've learned is that the only thing that's constant. In life is change. Right. And so right now your circumstances might not be ideal. But understand that that is for now, those two words have become really important words to me, right? I don't like the way things are right now, right? I wish my Co parent was more cooperative. I wish my children had a different time sharing arrangement. I wish you know, if only like we can engage in all that kind of thinking. But the important thing, I think. To stay focused on is that that may be the way it is for now. Lots of things can change and so really again put your energy into what you have control over. Not that you can't control. And you will fare far better through this process. Then by staying in stuck, right?
Heather
There you go. Right. We've reached the end of our show and thank you so much, Christina, for being. With us today, it's. Been great, great information and for our. Listeners, you can find Christina's website. Divorceandchildren.com in her book parenting Apart is available on Amazon. We will make sure those links, both of them are in the show notes. So please check those out. After you listen to this and if you or. Someone you know is going through. The boards or is. Thinking about indoors, of course, reach out to us. At Florida women. Fallgroup.com. And also for any of you in that same same situation, I'll look to our Facebook group, which is women winning divorced, wonderful community that to a safe space to go through. This challenging time and and some of you are already through it. You can. Really help out. Some of the other members who are. A little earlier. In the process and the link will be below. In the episode. Show notes. Also, please leave us a 5 star. Review and thank you for listening.
Heather
Thank you for joining me for this episode of Women winning Divorce. My goal is to elevate your life and the way you are. Thinking so that you are best equipped to win at life if you enjoy the show, please subscribe so you automatically get my new shows every week and I would love to hear from you. Personally, come join the conversation on social and join our Facebook group, women winning divorce. We welcome your comments and suggestions. We want to bring you content that helps move your life forward. Women winning divorce is the place for an elevated conversation on how women can thrive during times of adversity in order to live their best. Right.